1956 to 1957 Model Changeover

[crystal59]

Doing the math, if production was 3989 as the final number does one simply subtract 444 for production number for 1957 to arrive that first 1957 first car was 3989. -444 equals 3545.? I would like to know what was the first 1957 model. If anyone could help Thank You. Gary

[linc64]

According to an article in the Summer 1980 issue of Continental Comments, 3418 is the first 1957 Mark II.

[crystal59]

Thank You. I am bidding on a car at present no 2702 abd thought that would be safe but good to know exact number as the guy has a buy it now for 49,000 so reserve will likely be too high for what I want. Gary

[Barry Wolk]

Serial numbers for production cars started with 1001, There were 3,003 cars made, including the pre-production cars.

You can't go by the serial numbers themselves as some were skipped or never produced.

[linc64]

So to put in other words, all models built October 1, 1956 and thereafter are 1957.

[Don Henschel]

According to the 1995 LCOC authenticity manual Sept.1 1956 3418 for 57 models. Years ago when I inquired about this to figure out what year mine actually was because of all the same features as 57 on it, it was mentioned that the 3418 serial number was even disputed but accepted by most as 1957 I forget who I asked, Lowell, Buddy, Jack??

[Don Henschel]

So to put in other words, all models built October 1, 1956 and thereafter are 1957.

You might be right. I was talking to Lowell about this as well and he figured October 1 of 1956. My car was made in September and its a 56

[linc64]

I don't know, I only have one source, the Summer 1980 edition of Continental Comments.

[crystal59]

I take it that relying on 3418 as the first 1957 is a safe bet. Gary

[Kevin Garrison]

Certainly no expert on the subject as I have just acquired my Mark II; however, I tend to agree with the school of thought that says 1 October 1956 was the model year division. My car is #3380 and from the patent plate I believe my car was produced (left the factory?) on 7 September 1956 as it is 01-1E4L-K7-3 (I assume 3 means the 3rd car completed on that day?).

[Shawn Newcomb]

Seems to me that Ford declaring an arbitrary date for the 1957 model year introduction flies in the face claimed updates to the car for 1957.

Well, did the '57s get extra hp or not (sounds like not) if they can't pin the engine # to the car serial # of the car with the first 300hp and/or Carter carburetor and/or 120mph speedo and/or new style trunk hinges.

[crystal59]

Does that make you a 1956 or 1957?. Gary

[Don Henschel]

Seems to me that Ford declaring an arbitrary date for the 1957 model year introduction flies in the face claimed updates to the car for 1957.

Well, did the '57s get extra hp or not (sounds like not) if they can't pin the engine # to the car serial # of the car with the first 300hp and/or Carter carburetor and/or 120mph speedo and/or new style trunk hinges.

Sept. 1956 and 3391 for me (3418 for 57) and I have the 140 speedo, and new style trunk hinges. In some specs. I have seen 300 HP for the Carter equiped cars with a 10:1 compression. Who knows maybe some of the latest Holley equiped cars had 10:1 ratio. Probably the ratio was changed by a smaller cylinder head chamber. Anybody with casting numbers off of an original 57 with a Carter carb?

[Chuck Lutz]

Buddy's book indicates that Oct 1 and on were 1957. Some of the production totals earlier in his book have now been refuted but this seems pretty solid.

[Barry Wolk]

Buddy's assertions have been disputed many times. He obviously didn't have access to the Continental records as we do. Take anything published in that book as interesting, but not necessarily factual.

The '56 engine was 285 hp and the '57 was 300. They accomplished that by an increase in compression and a better breathing carb.

[linc64]

Barry, maybe you could research this issue at the Benson Ford Research Center next time you're there.

[Barry Wolk]

Sure, I'd make a special trip.

What should I be looking for as I've seen no real notations as to what engine got put in the car. What would I be looking for?

[linc64]

I was actually referring to the date of the '57s. Sept. 1, as the authenticity manual states, or Oct. 1 as Buddy's book says.

[Shawn Newcomb]

The problem is that was decided in 1964 as a result of a lawsuit.

Seems fair to say that all the cars are 1956 Continentals produced over a 2 1/2 year period with running changes in production and that Ford was content with that until someone forced their hand. Evidence: the C56-prefix on every production Mark II made. There really doesn't seem to be an official 1957 Mark II just early cars and late cars.

[Barry Wolk]

I was actually referring to the date of the '57s. Sept. 1, as the authenticity manual states, or Oct. 1 as Buddy's book says.

I know what you mean, I'm asking what notations I should be looking for.

I did see a letter in the files about continuing the C56 instead of going to C57, but it didn't mention a cut-off date.

That's why I think we should arrange a gathering so there are more than just my eyes on the material. If something's of lower interest to me I just scan over it. Also, I really don't look at much before September of '55 as that's when the damage letter was written that included my car. My focus is on a follow-up document that would categorically tell what happened to it and why it disappeared until 1963, 8 years later, when it had only 16,000 miles on it.

[Barry Wolk]

The problem is that was decided in 1964 as a result of a lawsuit.

Seems fair to say that all the cars are 1956 Continentals produced over a 2 1/2 year period with running changes in production and that Ford was content with that until someone forced their hand. Evidence: the C56-prefix on every production Mark II made. There really doesn't seem to be an official 1957 Mark II just early cars and late cars.

I looked through the files and saw no documents that support litigation as the reason for a model year change. A 1964 lawsuit can't change history.

I will look at all the Sept-Oct. P.O.s. I believe it would take a notation of "1st" 120 mph speedo or "1st" new air cleaner or "1st" new transmission.

[Shawn Newcomb]

Barry, couldn't a lawsuit after the fact (even years later) in essence change history by establishing a timeline that would serve as precedent for that arbitration now and later?

As an aside, ie. the BC/AD thing is now the accepted standard for denoting history, but that had to have been set up retroactively. Who knew about it as it was happening?

[Barry Wolk]

I understand, but a 1964 lawsuit only establishes a date, I assume due to some valuation of a car, not to establish a history change for the LCOC.

People can sue over some pretty stupid shit, as I'm sure Shelly will attest. The case may have only had merit within the confines of that suit, not the real world.

[Shawn Newcomb]

I'll buy that.

[Barry Wolk]

Yes, we've discussed this before. Do a search of "Nostrils"

The parts book show the last car as job #1239. However, there were a ton of cancelled job numbers, so that number may not even relate to a serial number.

You'd have to take 1,239 and add 1001 plus 12 (preproduction cars) plus the number of cancelled P.O.s I found in a huge stack of 200+cards.

The larger the database gets the narrower we'll be able to accurately set some of these times. We could glean a bunch of information by contacting the people in our data base to see whether their car has nostrils, or not.

My records reflect that job #1239 was also the recorded chage in the rocker panels to accommodate an air intake for the a/c.

My recods reflect that job #597 was the last of the scissor hinges, but again, there were cancellations.

I'm looking for other notations.

[crystal59]

Thanks Barry. Gary

[Barry Wolk]

Wouldn't the best way of determining 1957 production, for our purposes, be the change in paint codes. Engines and transmissions of both styles could easily have both been in the parts bin at the same time, but, as I recall, the sales point for the '57 model year were the new irredescent colors.

That is something that I might be able to determine from the records.

[crystal59]

I know it is nuts but I really enjoy showing the 140 spedometer after a person swoons over the car and then sits in the car for the first time. Do not care if it goes 140 or not. Gary

[Barry Wolk]

Found another referece in the parts manual to 1239 being the change of an air ventilator part.

[crystal59]

Did research on nostrils thread and still clear as mud to me so will not use nostrils as a reference point for start of 57 but what about last 140 spedometer as the end of 56 and if not end of 56 can at least identify end of that spedometer. Gary

[Barry Wolk]

No one said they were a '57 changeover. I believe they were discontinued in early '56.

The speedo may have been a running change, too.

[Shelly Harris]

why Gary ??

If you plan on driving your car... go for a '57 if you can find one. Ford changed the Holley carb, which likes to catch fire, to the better Carter WCFB, changed the distributor to a better one w/o multiple vacuum pulls and flakey internal springs... which they initiated in all the other cars Ford was making in '57, the oil filter was changed from a cartridge to the more convenient "spin on" type, and the air filter was changed to the more convenient cartridge type. I'm not certain, but the intake manifold may have also been changed. These are all improvements. As to value for a collector I see no difference between an early '56 or the last '57.

[Barry Wolk]

I would agree. The '57 is a superior vehicle to the '56 because of the drive train. They made the changes for a reason.

However, I am leaning with the idea that "C56" best categorized the total production with running changes.

[Don Henschel]

I was actually referring to the date of the '57s. Sept. 1, as the authenticity manual states, or Oct. 1 as Buddy's book says.



Certainly no expert on the subject as I have just acquired my Mark II; however, I tend to agree with the school of thought that says 1 October 1956 was the model year division. My car is #3380 and from the patent plate I believe my car was produced (left the factory?) on 7 September 1956 as it is 01-1E4L-K7-3 (I assume 3 means the 3rd car completed on that day?).

Oct.1 sounds reasonable to me! My car was built Sept.17 and was the second one of that day. If Sept.1 was the first 57 well then I guess Kevin and myself have 57s:rolleyes:
As for the "improvements" of the 57's, for what it's worth all of Lowell Domholdts Mark II's (4 of them) had the Holleys. Like myself he had no complaints about how they ran and remarked that all 4 of them ran very well! As for the horsepower 15 hp more:eek: wow:rolleyes:

[Barry Wolk]

The problem is that was decided in 1964 as a result of a lawsuit.


I've heard of this case, but I know nothing of it. What do you know?

[linc64]

Barry, you might be able to research the records of the Ford Motor Company Office of the General Council. They're the ones that made the decision of what date the '57s started.

[Barry Wolk]

Barry, you might be able to research the records of the Ford Motor Company Office of the General Council. They're the ones that made the decision of what date the '57s started.

There are pages in their guide books that say that parts of the collection are not made public and are stored elsewhere. However, Ford's historian might be able to shed some light on the subject.

[Shawn Newcomb]

Barry, my comments were based on the attachment in Post#8 of this thread only.

[Barry Wolk]

I might have this resolved. Outwardly, the new 1957 colors 19, 20, 22 and 22 were the new iridescent colors in blue, green, tan and grey.

The first of those colors (#19) showed up on a production car C56G3160, followed by 3167 in #21 and then 3174 in #20.

However, these cars were May '56 production cars, possibly being built for future release. This is pretty much what happens today, except there was no real model changeover, to speak of. Looks like they may have held back the new color cars.

I can try and confirm this by checking the build date against the ship date.

[crystal59]

That gives me a benchmark if the new colours are in a car that has the superior transmission, etc that you mentioned previously. But as I said to Shawn I no know that simple math with production numbers is not enough and that is a big help to me. Gary

[Shelly Harris]

In determining the year of the car I wouldn't overlook the obvious, i.e. the year indicated on the title. . It is certain (IMHO) that a car originally purchased as a 1957 would have been titled as a 1956. If it wasn't I would think the purchaser would be stomping mad! Any subsequent State titleing would reflect the year on the previous title surrendered.

[Barry Wolk]

In the M2E it says that it is generally accepted that all 1957s are equipped with Positive Lock Differential. The first PLD shows up on C56P3578, recognized by the MIIE as the first month of '57 production.

I'd say that PLD is another fine improvement for continuing and improving the model.

[crystal59]

Darn should have said 57 and not 58. Typing class was not a strong point. Gary

[Barry Wolk]

Gary,

You can edit your own posts by hitting the edit button below your post. It lets you correct mistakes. If you make the correction right away, no one knows. If you wait and go back there's a simple message below your post that you've changed it. You can give a reason if you'd like, but you don't have to. I might suggest that you use that tool to add onto your posts instead of starting a new one. Hope that helps.

[SLK]

In the M2E it says that it is generally accepted that all 1957s are equipped with Positive Lock Differential. The first PLD shows up on C56P3578, recognized by the MIIE as the first month of '57 production.

I'd say that PLD is another fine improvement for continuing and improving the model.

By looking at the database, it shows PLD first showed up on C56L3430.

[Nick DeSpirito]

How could C56P (March 1957) be the first month of '57 production?

[Barry Wolk]

My book shows "P" as January 1957.

[Barry Wolk]

By looking at the database, it shows PLD first showed up on C56L3430.

It's because #3430 was a DSO that was fitted with a 1957 drivetrain, apparently ordered by the customer that way with Continental accommodating them.

There were other DSO with '57 drivetrains with '56 production dates. The first being #3400. There were 4 cars made that way. The other two were #3426 and #3436. The '57 production started with #3551.

[Nick DeSpirito]

My book shows "P" as January 1957.


My bad. :o So much for using my fingers to calculate. Doh' there's twelve months in a year, not ten fingers. :D

But, I always thought that the '57's hit the showroom floors in the fall of 1956.

[Barry Wolk]

That would be normal for September preview of high production cars, as I remember, but the Mark II followed the Rolls-Royce format in that it offered series or "continuation" cars. The S-1 Bentley "Continental" ran from '55-'58. Porsche also followed the "continuation" route with the 356, 356A, 356B,..............

I read a letter about that very subject in some internal Continental documents. They were emulating Rolls-Royce in many, many, ways. I did find it humorous that Ford asked Bentley not to use the "Continental" name. Bentley didn't bother to reply.

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/barry2952/1%20Mark%20II%20docs/Oct1506.jpg

[Nick DeSpirito]

That is funny. I guess Ford never trademarked the name.

So, '56's were produced and sold up until December of 1956?

[Barry Wolk]

Apparently so.

[awags]

It's because #3430 was a DSO that was fitted with a 1957 drivetrain, apparently ordered by the customer that way with Continental accommodating them.

There were other DSO with '57 drivetrains with '56 production dates. The first being #3400. There were 4 cars made that way. The other two were #3426 and #3436. The '57 production started with #3551.

I've been trying to figure out what parts on my car are 'factory'. I've got a '56 with a CARTER carb, !40 mph, no seat belts, no nostrils.
What does DSO mean? Mine is #C56K3400, 1 of 4?
Apparently some new parts trickled into the '56's?
01-56C-271-K20-1
11-60-A

[Barry Wolk]

Dealer Special Order.

Someone might have swapped out your carb, like Shelly's car.

[awags]

So the CARTER would not have been part of the DSO '57 drivetrain?
The reason I ask is my car came with the CARTER installed and the HOLLEY in a box (could be from the donor car). If the HOLLEY is what is supposed to be on it perhaps in the future I would rebuild and maybe put it back on. basically just curious for my own satisfaction.

[Dan]

Most likely the Holley was on your vehicle
Check out "Tempest in a Teapot or Welcome Back Carter?" Thread to read what others' opinions are regarding the 2 carburetors. There are other discussions too, lots of depth on this forum.
Happy reading!

[awags]

Thats what I've been doing last 2 hrs! I would rather keep the CARTER on but curious as to which is the 'correct one'. But yes, lots of discussion!

[Dan]

If you are driving the car, keep what you wish to keep.
If you are going for a complete restoration, go with the rebuilt Holley.
Either way, I'd keep both units on hand, in case you change your mind.

[Don Keller]

Hi Aaron,

Others would know for sure, but I'd swear that I recently read that even the carb., among numerous other locations, had the VIN pressed on it. If I dreamed it, I need to get a life. If it's true, that would answer your question; in addition to the DSO sheet which I'd think would have listed a carb. that wasn't base. Not to start a carbfest, just offering some ideas that may or may not be accurate. I guess a previous owner either did or didn't want to "Have a Holley-Jolly Christmas!". You can't go wrong either way, but I'd guess there's a fair chance that the Holley in the box needs a kit. Good luck.

Don Keller
C56R3838
Jackson, TN

[Barry Wolk]

My book shows that #3400 had a '57 engine. It doesn't say drivetrain. Your car also had PIP, or Padded Instrument Panel.

Does your car have a two chamber distributor, or a single chamber?

[Barry Wolk]

Others would know for sure, but I'd swear that I recently read that even the carb., among numerous other locations, had the VIN pressed on it. If I dreamed it, I need to get a life.

Don Keller
C56R3838
Jackson, TN


I think you need to get a life.:D The motor number is stamped into the block, but not the serial number. I don't believe that the serial number is on the carb, but I've been wrong before.

[Don Keller]

Barry,

But if I get a life, I won't be around to hear you be wrong for the first time. If I dreamed it, maybe I'll dream about it again and remember where I read it. But, I may be wrong...it wouldn't be the first time in the last ten minutes. I admit it, I'm biased with wide white walls and from what you found it's looking even more like the Carter was original...no? I just like to harrass you Barry. Pretty soon you guys will have covered all the Mark II parts if I don't distract you.

Don Keller
C56R3838
Jackson, TN

[awags]

Sorry Barry I'm new at this car, whats the difference? single or double chamber. How do I tell? If it's the diaphragm on the side it's a single.
Also your earlier post stated mine was DSO drivetrain, thats where I got that from.
I'm thinking with Don that a '57 engine would mean Carter.??
The P.O. had a donor car to get parts from so there is another engine and various extra parts with my car. Thats why I'm not sure if the HOLLEY might be from the donor car and had nothing to do with mine perhaps!?
Also two sets of hubcaps- one set black and one red which is whats on car now.is there a way to tell which is original? I've been trying to download pics but not having luck.

[Barry Wolk]

Hi Aaron,

There were some red hubcaps, but that's not noted on your DSO, so yours were painted black. Restored hubcaps typically get a vinyl overlay under the vanes.

It sounds like the Carter and single pot distributor are original to your car. If you could look for your engine number it would be helpful to our database. The number is stamped, not cast, into the block near the base of the distributor. I has to scrape the paint off to see mine. If it's close to the last 4 digits of your serial number it's probably the original block.

The easiest way for me was to take a digital picture. I couldn't get my big body close enough to read it.

[Barry Wolk]

Your pictures may be too big for this site. Downsize them or host them at Flickr or Photobucket and paste them into your message with image tags.

[awags]

2418 is stamped left of distributor. I'll check the other block when I get over by it. Thanks for the info!

[Barry Wolk]

That's about right. The serial numbers started at 1001. There were a number of pre-production cars that got numbered production engines, so serial number 3400 less 1001 plus the number of replacement and production engines would put your number in the 2418 range. Sounds like a '56 engine with '57 upgrades, but it's so close to switchover to the '57 model year that a few numbers, one way or another, could make a difference. I guess it boils down to when the '57 model year really began. I think that there were 2,550 cars made in '56, which would encompass your engine number. If the other engine was the original engine it would have anumber higher than #2550, or thereabouts.

There was a law suit that determined the legal '57 model introduction date, but that was just a legal decision, not necessarily fact.

[Don Keller]

Aaron,

If you can determine the VIN for the doner car, we could look up the DSO for it and perhaps determine what was there to be donated. Or since you have the donor engine, I'd think by going backward from the engine number, the VIN could at least be approximated.

Don Keller

[AU_MK2]

I'm really amazed that the words holley and carter are in a post and no mention of.....ummm.. oh yeah ..fire......:D

[Rick Payton]

Richard you just had to go there... lol fuel for the fire:D

[Pat Marshall]

Car 3391 had Engine #2409 difference 982
Car 3464 had Engine #2482 difference 982
Car 3493 had Engine #2511 difference 982

Almost certainly engine #2418 matches car 3400 (difference 982)

Looking forward to getting the donor car VIN.

[awags]

The donor car is C56?2402, the spare engine 1420=982. I'm seeing a trend here.

[Pat Marshall]

Math Check?

Did you buy your car from Anthony Brzozowski?

[awags]

He passed away a few years ago. I've been close to the family since high school (20yrs). I bought 3400 from them to finish it, it's been sitting 3/4 finished in their shop. Almost done now. 2402 was the 'donor' car, A friend has that now, not many good parts left anymore. Tonys kids said he got 2402 from Ohio, was that you Pat?

[Pat Marshall]

No, much to my wife's consternation, I haven't sold anything yet. I would be interested in anything you can dig up on 2402.

[Barry Wolk]

My wife's an enabler of my addiction.

[awags]

Its just sitting out in the open right now, everything exposed. I'm planning on talking to him about that. He says he wants to do something with it but I'm sure it's too far gone. I'll let you know if anything changes. Plenty of good parts.