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Old 04-04-2010, 05:03 PM
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That's not what I said. What I said was that I thought it was criminal to use poison in your gasoline so you can get your jollies. IMO.
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Old 04-04-2010, 05:18 PM
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Here is my last attempt for nowHere is the last attempt and of course delete if it is not corre





Gasoline and Grease



Engine fuel is mainly made up of hydrogen and carbon, mixed so that it will burn with oxygen present, and will free its heat energy into mechanical energy. Liquid fuels are ideal for internal combustion engines, because they can be economically produced, have a high heat value per pound, an ideal rate of burning, and can be easily handled and stored. The most common engine fuels are gasoline, kerosene and Diesel fuel oil.


Gasoline



Gasoline has many advantages and is used to a greater extent than any other fuel in internal combustion engines having spark ignition. It has a better burning rate than other fuels, and, because it vaporizes easily, it gives quick starting in cold weather, smooth acceleration and maximum power.

High performance cars require high performance gasoline. Owners of pre-1971 cars know that their cars require leaded gasoline to run correctly. As leaded gasoline is not sold in the United States, these owners need to buy Lead Substitute Additives (generally $1-$2 per bottle) which are good for one tank of gas. The lead is important because it acts as a lubricant for the internal engine parts and stops them from wearing out to quickly. Engines built in 1971 and later are generally built to run on Unleaded Gas so adding Lead Substitute won't help. In fact, lead damages Catalytic Converters (mandatory on cars built after 1977), and is more harmful to the environment, so don't add it if you don't have to. In either case, you should be purchasing the highest Octane gas at the pump. Supreme Unleaded (92 Octane) is fine and should be used for most engines and everyday driving. Owners of truly high performance engines (i.e. Compression ratios greater than 10.0:1) should consider using Octane boosters to keep their engines running smoothly. Octane boosters may also help if you plan to race your car extensively or whenever you want a little more power. Note that Racing Fuel (104 Octane +) is expensive (often more than triple the price of Supreme Unleaded) and hard to find, and should only be used if you truly have an engine built for racing. It is just overkill in a regular street car being taken to the drag strip and won't give you any measureable improvement over Supreme Unleaded.


Diesel Fuel



Diesel fuel oil ranks next to gasoline in quantity used. It can be produced as cheaply as gasoline, but its use is limited to Diesel type engines. The use of kerosene as a fuel is usually limited to farm tractors, marine and stationary engines, all which operate at a fairly constant speed. Its traits are such that it cannot be properly mixed with air and controlled in variable speed engines.


Octane Rating



A gasoline's ability to resist detonation is called its "octane" or anti-knock rating. Gasoline from asphaltic base crude oil produces less knock than one from paraffinic base crude. Cracked gas has less tendency to knock than straight run gas. All marketed gasolines are a blend of straight run and cracked gasolines, so unless their blending is controlled, the anti-knock qualities will vary.

A mixture of iso-octane, which has a very high anti-knock rating, and heptane, which makes a pronounced knock, is used as a reference fuel to establish an anti-knock standard. The anti-knock value or octane number is represented by the percentage of volume of iso-octane that must be mixed with normal heptane in order to duplicate the knocking of the gasoline which is being tested. These ratings range from 50 in third grade gasolines to 110 in aviational fuels. The rating of 100 means a fuel having an anti-knock value equal to that of iso-octane. If the octane rating of a gasoline is naturally low, the fuel will detonate as it burns and power will be applied to the pistons in hammer-like blows. The ideal power is that which pushes steadily on the pistons, rather than hammer against them. The octane rating of a gasoline can be raised by treating it with a chemical which is not a fuel. The best chemical known is tetra-ethyl lead compound, which is added to the gasoline.

Tetra-ethyl lead is a liquid which mixes thoroughly with gasoline and vaporizes completely. Ethylene dibromide prevents the tetra-ethyl lead from forming lead oxide deposits on spark plugs and on valve seats and stems. Red dye is added to identify an ethyl treated gasoline and to warn against its being used as anything but an engine fuel. In 1975, it became illegal to use a leaded gasoline except in cars built prior to this time. With the addition of the catalytic converter, it is undesirable to burn leaded fuel, because leaded fuel will clog the converter and increase the back-pressure of the exhaust.


Cetane Rating (Ether)



The delay between the time the fuel is injected into the cylinder and ignition is expressed as a cetane number. Usually, this is between 30 and 60. Fuels that ignite rapidly have high cetane ratings, while slow-to-ignite fuels have lower cetane ratings. A fuel with a better ignition quality would help combustion more than a lower cetane fuel during starting and idling conditions when compression temperatures are cooler. Ether, with a very high cetane rating of 85-96, is often used for starting diesel engines in cold weather. The lower the temperature of the surrounding air, the greater the need for fuel that will ignite rapidly. When the cetane number is too low, it may cause difficult starting, engine knock, and puffs of white exhaust smoke, especially during engine warm-up and light load operation. If these conditions continue, harmful engine deposits will accumulate in the combustion chamber.

Pressurized cans of starter fluid are available in emergencies, but are not desirable, because they tend to dry out the cylinders, and are dangerous if used improperly. There are also liquid forms of starter fluid available which can be added to the gasoline.


Fuel Additives



Tetraethyl lead was used in some gasolines to reduce or prevent knocking. However, in 1975, it became illegal to use leaded gasoline except in cars built prior to this time. Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) is used in unleaded fuel to increase the octane. Gasoline exposed to heat and air oxidizes and leaves a gummy film. Detergents are now added to gasoline to prevent this. The detergents keep the carburetor passages and fuel injectors free from deposits, which could cause hard starting and problems in driving. Deposits also restrict the flow of fuel and cause a rough idle, hesitation of acceleration, surging, stalling, and lack of power.

Alcohol is frequently used as an additive to commercial gasoline, because it will absorb any condensed moisture which may collect in the fuel system. Water will not pass through the filters in the fuel line, so, when any water collects, it will prevent the free passage of fuel. It also tends to attack and corrode the zinc die castings of which many carburetors and fuel pumps are made. This corrosion will not only destroy parts, but also clog the system and prevent the flow of fuel. By using alcohol in gasoline, any water present will be absorbed and pass through the fuel filter and carburetor jets into the combustion chamber. Alcohol additives are often purchased and added separately into the gas tank to prevent gas-line freeze and vapor lock.

Alcohol as a Fuel



The increasing cost of gasoline, and the new laws requiring alternative fuels have turned the attention of car and truck designers to substitutes. Chief among alternative fuels is alcohol. Considerable research has been done, and is still carried out, for alcohol in spark ignition engines. Alcohol fuels were used extensively in Germany during WWII, and alcohol blends are used in many vehicles at the present time.

Methanol and ethanol are the forms of alcohol receiving the most attention. Both are made from non-petroleum products. Methanol can be produced from coal, and ethanol can be made from farm products such as sugar cane, corn, and potatoes. Both alcohols have a higher octane number than gasoline. High heat of vaporization, however, indicates that the use of alcohol could give harder starting problems than gasoline, which means a need for a larger fuel tank and larger jet sizes in the carburetor. It requires less air for combustio probable fact and then inferring that improved performance will result. In the case of the synthetic wheel bearing grease, the drag caused by properly adjusted and lubricated wheel bearings on a 4000# vehicle is such a minuscule amount, an improvement of 100% of the drag would still be un-measurable. In fact, the bearings could probably be run without any grease, and the vehicle would run about the same until the seized.
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Old 04-05-2010, 08:37 AM
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You all should read this before using additives.

http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/perspect/lead.htm
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Old 04-05-2010, 10:56 AM
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Barry:

I think you're confusing lead and additives. That link is about lead. Use of lead, and use of "additives". is not the same. There's no conflict here. No one can reasonably argue in support of using lead. Using additives is another subject. Gas companies put lots of additives in their gas. I pour in carb cleaner or fuel treatment in the gas very often..... maybe I'm wasting my money. But I don't think it's wrong for me to be doing that?
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Old 04-05-2010, 11:05 AM
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You thought you were using lead before you found out otherwise. Many people are using lead additives that are illegally smuggled into this country.

I'm not confused about anything.
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Old 04-05-2010, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelly Harris View Post
If you don't add lead to the gas in your Mark II, then don't expect to get to higher mileage without an early rebuild.

Don't confuse lead additive with octane boosters.

A lead additive is necessary for most all engines manufactured before 1972. It is not necessary for octane boosting. It is necessary in those engines to prevent valve seat and valve stem damage. Engines made from 1972 and after have hardened valve seats and stems --- they do not need lead gas to prevent the damage.

Prior to 1972 the automotive industry used steel that would gall in a high temperature situation where the valves operate in a engine. Lead additive in the gasoline lubricated the valve stems, accomplishing the needed result.You can accept this or reject it at your peril. Our Mark IIs should have lead additive added to the fuel. It has nothing to do with octane.

This is your post. You brought up the use of lead as a necessity.
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:36 PM
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Using Unleaded Gas in Vintage Cars75
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By Classic Car Guy


Using Unleaded Gas in Vintage Cars

At one of the vintage cars websites sites I belong to there was a member who shared an interesting experience to the forum. Below is the Readers Digest version.

The new owner (who we will call John) had seen his dream vintage car advertised on the same website referenced above. John liked what he saw, and it helped that many forum members validated how nice the car was. John set an appointment to test drive the car. When John arrived the car was even better looking than the pictures indicated. The owner decided that John was a serious buyer and wasn't a "tire kicker". They decided to take the car out for a test drive. The car started on the first turn of the key, idled smoothly, and ran perfectly. The owner let John drive back on the return trip. And even though John was taking it easy, he was able to get the tires to chirp easily in 2nd and 3rd gear.

John purchased the car, loaded it up on his trailer, and was now the proud owner of a beautiful 1970 Nova Super Sport. Since the car was almost perfect and didn't need any work, John started driving to a couple of local car cruises and classic car shows to get a feel of the car.

The next car show was about an hour and a half away. After waxing the car, and checking the fluids, John filled the gas tank. A couple of miles down the road John stopped at a red light. When the light turned green, he pulled away, and heard a light knocking/pinging noise on acceleration. The noise grew louder the longer he drove the car. The only time John heard the noise was on acceleration. If he drove the car "easy" like there was an egg under the gas pedal, the pinging was almost non existent and tolerable. If he had to pass another car and was required to accelerate, the noise got worse, and the engine didn't have the same power as his first test drive. Other than the noise, the car performed flawlessly. John drove the car to and from the show, but he was really anxious and nervous because he thought he had bought a lemon. And he wasn't a happy camper.

Long story short, some of the people reading John's story started to ask him questions. A group of them even made a special trip to John's house to take a test drive with John to see if they could determine what was happening. During the discussion one of the bystanders asked John what changes he made to the car since buying it. John replied "I didn't touch a thing, except to wash it, wax it, and I filled the gas tank". The bystander said, "I am going to take a leap here" then he asked "what kind of gas did you put in it"?

Let me jump ahead here in the story, and explain why this is so important.

High performance cars from the 60's and early 70's require high performance gasoline. Unless the engine has already been modified, pre-1971 cars require leaded high octane gasoline to run correctly. Because leaded gasoline is no longer sold in the United States, owners of these types of vehicles need to buy lead substitute additives (around $2-$5 per bottle). A bottle is generally good for one tank of gas. Lead is critical because it acts as a lubricant for the internal engine parts and stops them from wearing out prematurely. Engines built in 1971 and later are built to run on unleaded gas so adding lead substitute is not needed. In fact, lead damages Catalytic Converters, which are required on cars built after 1977, and is more harmful to the environment. Adding a lead additive to a pre-1971 engine will literally prevent the engine from beating itself to death.

John's experience was something that happens to many vintage car owners. The reason the Nova ran great with the previous owner was because he used a 92 octane gasoline and added a bottle of lead substitute with every fill-up. When John filled the gas tank he used the same 87 octane gasoline he uses for his everyday driver. He never gave any thought to what type of gas he was running. Most people don't buy vintage cars for gas mileage and economy reasons. Therefore it only took a couple of weekends of local driving before John needed to fill up his gas tank again. Now the engine was off of its "design point", meaning it was never intended to run on low octane, unleaded fuel. The engine started to ping and knock under a load, as soon as the new gas was being burned.

When John shared his story on the forum, there was about a quarter of a tank of economy gas left. He added a bottle of octane booster, a bottle of lead substitute, and filled the rest of the tank with 92 octane premium gas. Since then, John's car has been running perfectly.

An original pre 70's engine which has not been modified for unleaded fuel will need a little help in the gas department. Always use the highest octane possible. A bottle of good octane booster and a lead substitute will help maximize performance and the engine's longevity. You should be purchasing the highest octane gas possible because a high octane rating prevents knocking and pinging. Supreme unleaded (92 octane) is fine and should be used for most engines and everyday driving.

Owners of truly high performance engines, meaning a compression ratio greater than 10.0:1, must use an octane booster to keep their engines running smoothly. Octane boosters will also help if you plan to race your car occasionally or whenever you want a little more power. Remember, racing fuel in the 104 octane category and higher is expensive and sometimes hard to find.

Racing fuel should only be used if you truly have an engine built for racing and is overkill for a street car.

For more great tips and information, come see the folks at Your Dream Car Finder!

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Comments
Ted*12 months ago

In the situation you describe, whether the fuel was leaded or unleaded was irrelevant. What mattered was the difference in octane rating.

The (debatable) need for leaded fuel or an appropriate additive for an unmodified pre-'71 automobile engine is relevant to valvetrain wear and wouldn't have shown up in a few days or, most likely, even a few years of fairly light weekend driving.

apocryphalcalabash*9 months ago

Good article. Very informative. I have a '46 International kit truck with an early '70s V8. I've always wondered about the ping. I've heard that the use of some E85 in the mix will raise the octane level, since its ethanol. Is this a no,no? Or would that be another option with the lead-substitute additive?

Last edited by Barry Wolk; 04-05-2010 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:49 PM
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Here is Doctor OldsOn January 1st 2000, Western Australia becomes the first Australian State to follow international trends and will be a totally unleaded market. Leaded petrol is being phased out first in WA with the other States to follow suit over the next couple of years. For owners of older cars this does not however mean the demise of their vehicles. Leaded petrol has been around since the 1940s. It is now being phased out worldwide. Lead was first discovered to provide an octane boost to petrol in the late 1920s and this feature was fully exploited to enable the design of improved performance engines for Spitfire planes during World War 2. Thereafter its use became widespread as an economical means of octane enhancement until the late 1980s when it began to be phased out in the US being incompatible with the catalytic converters mandated to achieve the clean air standards legislation. Most cars built before 1981, and many built before 1986, were designed to run on leaded petrol and have engines with soft exhaust valve seats. Abnormal exhaust valve seat recession (VSR) can occur when these vehicles are operated on unleaded fuel. This is because lead, in addition to providing octane improvement, also acts as a solid lubricant between the exhaust valve and the soft exhaust valve seat, preventing the valve from recessing into the cylinder head. VSR occurs when an exhaust valve impacts upon a soft cast iron valve seat at engine operating temperatures. VSR is exacerbated by high operating engine temperatures caused by high speed and/or high load conditions. Most vehicles of modern design have hardened valve seats or inserts that are insensitive to VSR. VSR can cause valve burning and loss of performance and, if allowed to progress unchecked, will ultimately result in loss of compression and engine failure. There are a number of measures that can be taken to prevent this occurring. Owners of older cars can either have hardened inserts fitted to the exhaust valve seats of their cars' engines - a relatively expensive modification, use a valve seat recession protection additive with unleaded petrol or use lead replacement petrol (LRP) with the additive pre-mixed. Valve seat recession protection additives act to replace the protection offered by lead. A number of additive chemistries are available which reportedly protect against VSR but independent tests have identified additives containing phosphorus as the most effective of these. Valvemaster is the phosphorus based VSR protection additive. It has been extensively proven in independent tests. Additionally, Valvemaster has had many years of successful use in North America, New Zealand and elsewhere since the global phase out of leaded petrol began and is the only VSR protection additive to have US EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) registration. Valvemaster is not a new product. It was originally developed in the US by Du Pont as a carburetor detergent. It was used extensively worldwide during the 1960s and 70s so many of the cars that now require Valvemaster for valve seat protection have a previous history of using petrol treated with Valvemaster. Valvemaster was subsequently discovered to offer excellent VSR protection and has been used to treat many billions of litres of petrol since the early 1980s.In New Zealand which went totally unleaded in 1996, Valvemaster is available at all service stations and has been used almost exclusively there. It has provided the necessary protection to many of the older Australian and European car models designed to run on leaded petrol and that are still common on New Zealand and Australian roads. Valvemaster gives effective protection against VSR at treat rates in the range of 11 to 30 ppm by weight of phosphorus depending upon driving conditions. A Treatment level of 30ppm by weight phosphorus gives very good protection under virtually all driving conditions. Independent tests undertaken by engine laboratories in Europe and the US proved Valvemaster to be the most effective VSR protection additive and the next best protection to lead. Valvemaster has been tested in Australia at Melbourne University's internationally recognised engine laboratory. A 3.3 litre Holden engine was used. Valvemaster passed a more severe test than the draft Australian Standard AS4430.2. In addition to VSR protection, Valvemaster keeps carburetors and port fuel injector systems clean. It is also effective at protecting fuel tanks and systems from corrosion. Valvemaster is either added to bulk petrol which is then sold as lead replacement petrol (LRP) or is sold as an aftermarket product which the motorist adds to the tank when refueling. In addition to LRP, Valvemaster will be available in two product forms. A Valvemaster applicator has been developed for use on the forecourt. One applicator treats fuel fills up to 20 litres. This product is what is generally used in New Zealand. A 250ml bottle with a dispensing device, graduated in litres of fuel treated, is also available for users who regularly want to dispense either large amounts, i.e. agricultural machinery, boats, etc, or small amounts not corresponding to the 20 litre applicator. Where LRP is available, these products will be offered for engines that may require supplementary (heavy-duty) protection e.g. high risk vehicle that are used for heavy towing or driven at motorway speeds for prolonged periods. Valvemaster is a registered trademark of the Associated Octel Company Limited.
Charles F. Kettering and the 1921 Discovery of Tetraethyl Lead In the Context of Technological Alternatives
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:51 PM
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A further comment from classic/ mForums » Tech and Talk » Technical » Automotive » '67 el camino - lead additive for fuel? yes no?
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Defcon888
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'67 el camino - lead additive for fuel? yes no?

just bought a 67 elky... rebuilt 283 engine 2 bbl and runs BEAUTIFULLY! cant smell a thing.

anyone recommend putting lead substitute in the fuel? no idea if the old owner has been putting in lead additives but ill call and ask tomorrow. or would you guys recommend mixing some in anyways? (let's assume ill be driving this vehicle off-road... so environmental issues aside, please.)
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Lagrangeville, NY Well if it calls for lead... yes! If not no!
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Defcon888
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San Bruno, CA didnt cars up to 1974 or so require leaded gas? that is what im not really sure about!
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1 edit reply to Defcon888
Lead in the fuel served to lubricate valve guides. The lead is detrimental to catalytic converters, thus the need for non-leaded fuel beginning in about '74 as you said.

Modern unleaded fuel contains lead-free additives that perform the same job, so I would think buying an additive would not be necessary...but if peace of mind is an issue there is no harm in using an additive.
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reply to Defcon888
said by Defcon888 :

just bought a 67 elky... rebuilt 283 engine 2 bbl and runs BEAUTIFULLY! cant smell a thing.

anyone recommend putting lead substitute in the fuel? no idea if the old owner has been putting in lead additives but ill call and ask tomorrow.
Tetraethyl Lead was used primarily as a anti-knock additive and secondary as a lubricant for the Exhaust Valve Seats (not the valve stems/guides which are lubricated by engine oil) and the removal of lead made older heads (1974 and earlier) and higher compression engines (1970 and earlier) that did not have hardened exhaust valve seats and were high compression beat and wear the exhaust seat out of the head causing valve recession into the head which is not a good thing at all when the engine was used for towing or driven hard, week-end raced, severe duty usage like Taxi or delivery. Basically leads removal from gas caused pre-ignition, higher temperatures in the the combustion chamber, less lubrication for the exhaust seats and higher exhaust temps all leading to accelerated wear on the heads exhaust valve seats.

You should ask the previous owner if newer than 1975 heads were used or if the pre-1974 heads were upgraded with hardened exhaust valve seats during the rebuild.

A good shop would also replace the Valve Guides at each rebuild and not knurl the old guides which does not last but a few thousand miles. There are two ways to replace valve guides. New Steel Guides or Bronze liners in the old Guides. This posts contents is based on Cast Iron heads as Aluminum heads require work that is similar, but not the same depending on the design.

As far as lead substitute nope, if you can't get real lead, then use Marvel Mystery Oil in your gas at every fill up (1 pint per 20 Gallons) to lubricate the valve seats and guides until you can afford to pull the heads and get hardened exhaust seats installed is you are going to run the vehicle hard during its lifetime.uscle cars
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Old 04-05-2010, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Wolk View Post
This is your post. You brought up the use of lead as a necessity.
That's right Barry. But, since that post I learned that lead substiute doesn't contain lead and that's a game changer. The original post I believe should be read with the understanding that it contains inarticulate use of the words additive and lead etc. I still have the same opinion about those old engines as what I wrote then, but understand that when you read that old post, when I say use lead I mean using lead substiute which doesn't contain lead.

This thread is getting tedious.... it's like "beating a dead horse".
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