2815 Recent purcahse of a mark ii have a few questions

[Bob Barger]

My car had 1/8 holes drilled in both the hood and trunk hinges. Since they had not been off before I got the car I assume they were drilled during original assembly.

I don't understand attaching the hinges to the hood (never mind trying to ship the hood) In order to align it, the hood and hinges have to be installed on the car once the front fenders are properly aligned.

[Barry Wolk]

I don't know why the factory would have done that, but I might be wrong.

Since yours was an early car it was not built by Mitchell. I can't recall the name of the first company that delivered "bodies in white", but I recall reading in the Continental files about slow deliveries and very poor workmanship and an enormous amount of lead. The bodies were fitted at the body maker on a jig. It could be that they were assembled and guide holes drilled before the front of the car was removed from the jig for shipment. Since they didn't have a frame to support the front fenders the entire front end was removed from the body.

Somewhere around here is a picture of how the bodies were shipped on a giant pallet.

I'm looking for a clean picture of the Mark IIs being shipped in bags. The only one I can find was copied off of grainy paper.

[Ralf Nygard]

I repaired my hinges myself with the hood on place(it was painted and during
adjustment I noticed that one hinge rivet per side had to be repaired though
I had already repaired a couple).
I strapped the front end of the hood from a beam in the garage roof and took off one hinge at the time.It was impossible to remove the hinges with
the lower hinge stud attached so I had to crawl under the dash with a hammer
and bang the studs out.Then I disassembled the hinge and welded the worn
holes round again(after some grinding).Anybody with a garage and some
tools can do it though it is not fun.Before the repair my hood was almost
one inch up from the cowl,not it is almost perfect.

[Pat Marshall]

Since yours was an early car it was not built by Mitchell. I can't recall the name of the first company that delivered "bodies in white", but I recall reading in the Continental files about slow deliveries and very poor workmanship and an enormous amount of lead. The bodies were fitted at the body maker on a jig. It could be that they were assembled and guide holes drilled before the front of the car was removed from the jig for shipment. Since they didn't have a frame to support the front fenders the entire front end was removed from the body.

Barry, I was surprised to learn that there were two Mark II body manufacturers. So, I called Lowell Domholdt to ask him about it and he said that he had never heard about a second body manufacturer and had never heard the term "bodies in white".

We're both very interested in learning more about that. Since the first Mark II made with a production body was Prototype 9502F (the Elmer Rohn car) and it used a Mitchell body, there must be quite a story there.

Considerations that Lowell raised:
(1) Why would they start with Mitchell for maybe as little as one unit and switch to a second vendor?

(2) Of course, what was the name of that vendor, and how many units did they make?

(3) Since automotive body stamping dies are horrendously expensive were there two sets of dies with each body maker being required to have a set for their production, or was there just one set that Continental owned and switched between body manufacturers?

I'm thinking this may require a trip to the Ford Archives for more research, so I'm wondering how one would get access to those records?

This is really interesting!

Barry, regarding shipping photos, I've found one - so far.

[Barry Wolk]

Yeah, I read a letter in the files to that effect. I thought that was common knowledge, so I didn't bring it up. In fact, I might have read that elsewhere, too.

I think you and Lowell should join me for a day at the files. Have ither of you been through the files? I've been there about a dozen times and I find something new each time. I found a box that you serial number mavens should go through. It's a box of cancelled Production Orders that's separate from the ascension box the Production Orders are in.

If you're lucky they will also bring out WCF's bound copy of the design competition drawings. That was pretty cool to see.

What you have to do is start looking for the files of some of the people that the WCF cc'd in his letters as I found additional information there. That's where I found the Chicago Division letter dealing with my car being damaged in shipment.

The documents are stored at the Benson Ford Research Library, nestled between The Henry Ford and Greenfield Village. You have direct access from the parking lot. You sign in and as for a guide to the book of ascension dealing with a period of Ford's history. There's a section for the Continental Division, but you have to look elsewhere.

When do you want to do a field trip? My shop is 20 minutes from there.

[Shawn Newcomb]

Pat,
Interestingly you and Barry were having a similar discussion almost exactly 3 years ago in a thread Prototype Fender Used on C5691379. Barry mentioned bodies in white there but couldn't remember the name of the 2nd supplier then either. I seem to recall seeing the photo Barry just mentioned around here too, but that was years ago. The archives have grown such that I don't think I could put my finger on it or even the context of that discussion anymore

[Roger Zimmermann]

So, I called Lowell Domholdt ....and had never heard the term "bodies in white".

The term "body in white" is usual in vehicle manufacturing. This is a complete body, sealed and primed but unpainted.

[Pat Marshall]

I've been going back through the Forum and have found "bodies in white" mentioned several times, including in threads that I have made postings. DOH!

I could not find the picture that Barry referenced nor the name of a 2nd body manufacturer.

Barry, I would like to take you up on your offer to visit the archives. Lowell isn't going to be able to make that trip in the forseeable future. Possibly You and I can set something up after the spring thaw?

Travelling to Detroit on route US 23 and I-75 can be pretty ferocious this time of year.

[Barry Wolk]

That's why they make airplanes.

[Barry Wolk]

I did a little research and I think they may have been made at the Ionia Mfg. plant before it burned and was replaced with the plant next door that built the rest of the Mark IIs. Coachbuilt.com says that the company was acquired in '53 by M-B, but that doesn't jibe with the production dates.

I'm beginning to remember more about the letter. It spoke of being very concerned that the smaller firm wouldn't be able to keep up with production as they had already lagged in delivery. I seem to distinctly remember that there was a complaint about a car that had one door an inch longer than the other.

I'm wondering if M-B made the prototypes with Continental's dies and then got them back. Possibly they shopped for a builder and got a better price than M-B and let the initial production contract to them, but pulled it when they didn't perform and transferred the dies back to M-B.

I just recently read that there was a die material change that saved them $600 a car. This may have been the turning point.