radial v. bias tires

[Keith W Colonna]

So the lesson here is: use these cars are they were designed with the bias ply tires. Drive like a 50's owner...no drink cups, no cel phone, always vigilant and watching the road....in other words...."Driving" a Car...not being a passenger behind the wheel.

[Roger Zimmermann]

So the lesson here is: use these cars are they were designed with the bias ply tires. Drive like a 50's owner...no drink cups, no cel phone, always vigilant and watching the road....in other words...."Driving" a Car...not being a passenger behind the wheel.
Don't forget that many things changed since that time. Then, (at least in Europe) you were almost alone on the road. If the car wandered a little bit, no matter, you had the space. If you were not alone, the other cars had about the same behavior, you had the time to apply the brakes as the one in front of you had nothing better. But now? roads are crowded, you have to be 10 time more careful as the other don't care and don't know how such an old vehicle can react.
I have one car with bias ply tires; never again!

[Barry Wolk]

Agreed. Keith seems to be ignoring all the data regarding bias-ply tires. I find that absurd, based on personal experience. I like my car to go where I point it.

I don't think nostalgia is a good reason to do anything.

Just my $.02

[Keith W Colonna]

Hello Roger, Barry,
Let me describe my driving experience.....about 1 million Kilometers on the Autobahn (strada) etc. in Europe driving high end European sedans.
I lived there on business and on expense account....gas, repairs, etc. were of no concern and I drove Wie die Hoelle (drove like hell).
So I would floor it all day long to cover my territory....BeNeLux to Italy.
I am an expert in car handling....I bought new tires every few months...new cars yearly or sooner.
I think of that driving experience completely differently than when I drive my Mark II's.(four now) or my other Lincolns....all have original style bias ply tires.
I don't drive my cars in busy traffic or presume to share the road with modern cars during commuting hours. What I do is Sunday Driving.
So I think it is absurd to try to impose a modern driving experience on our collector cars. That philosophy leads down the slippery slope to Hot Rodding.
And....I think that "nostalgia" should be the main reason and perhaps the only reason to do most things in the collector car hobby.
And that's my two-bits worth! (2 bits trumps 2 cents, Barry...BooYah;))

[Don Henschel]

Hello Roger, Barry,
Let me describe my driving experience.....about 1 million Kilometers on the Autobahn (strada) etc. in Europe driving high end European sedans.
I lived there on business and on expense account....gas, repairs, etc. were of no concern and I drove Wie die Hoelle (drove like hell).
So I would floor it all day long to cover my territory....BeNeLux to Italy.
I am an expert in car handling....I bought new tires every few months...new cars yearly or sooner.
I think of that driving experience completely differently than when I drive my Mark II's.(four now) or my other Lincolns....all have original style bias ply tires.
I don't drive my cars in busy traffic or presume to share the road with modern cars during commuting hours. What I do is Sunday Driving.
So I think it is absurd to try to impose a modern driving experience on our collector cars. That philosophy leads down the slippery slope to Hot Rodding.
And....I think that "nostalgia" should be the main reason and perhaps the only reason to do most things in the collector car hobby.
And that's my two-bits worth! (2 bits trumps 2 cents, Barry...BooYah;))

Well put! I couldnt have said it better myself. A nice relaxing drive out of the rat race, after all, these are not expendible commuter cars or beaters, and I will raise you 2 more bits.

[Barry Wolk]

Whatever. Please show me the technological breakthrough that happened to cars that made them different from ours.

The cars stayed the same, the tires changed.

Why don't you use bias-ply today? Were there no freeways in '56? Are you implying that a Mark II is unsafe at highway speeds?

IMO, fanboys of bias-ply tires are delusional.:rolleyes:

[Huffstutler]

Whatever. Please show me the technological breakthrough that happened to cars that made them different from ours.

The cars stayed the same, the tires changed.

Why don't you use bias-ply today? Were there no freeways in '56? Are you implying that a Mark II is unsafe at highway speeds?

IMO, fanboys of bias-ply tires are delusional.:rolleyes:

Keith was simply stating that times have changed as has sociological mindsets. We have become a society of self centered overweight slouching couch potatoes who wants things instantly and disposable - low maintenance.

Speaking of tires, how many cars now have whitewalls on them today? Why, one reason people have become too lazy to clean them.

Why has oak furniture and floors become so popular? Because they don't show dust or wear as much as mahogany or rosewood. Why so many drink cups in a car? Because we have again become so lazy that we can't get up in time to ease into the day or act civilized and go inside to eat - or eat like a family. And how many homes are even built with formal dining rooms now?

Point I am making is that times have changed and so have designs of cars to accommodate that. True, radial tires were around in 1956 but rare and tires in general were tall and narrow which is different than radial tires of today. The circumference being different will effect the turning ratio and consequently the speedometer reading.

Eric

[Huffstutler]

I agree with Barry. Tires are the only thing that touches the road and it is dangerous not to keep up with the tech changes to tires. In the pursuit of originality one can go too far and thereby put yourself and others at risk. Not worth the risk particularly with such a heavy car. Gary

Like I said, keep more than one set of tires. Radials for daily use for safety and have the speedometer calibrated for the difference ... and a second set which is original looking for showing the car at meets and such. Nothing worse than having pinstripe whitewalls on a car built before those style tires even existed. Might as well have blackwalls and to me is even more of a sin for a car of this caliber. But what I am saying you don't have to sacrifice originality and safety but work with it.

[Doc]

Without trying to be contentious, I just thought I'd add my two bits to this discussion (while remembering always that "reasonable people can disagree"). From some of his posts, I suspect that Keith and I share similar interests in "nostalgic" or historic things. We live, for example, in a 1920 Craftsman-style bungalow in which Stickley would feel right at home, as we've gone to great lengths to maintain the period correct appearance of the house--so much so that it is regularly used to illustrate our city's documents on historic preservation. Nevertheless, we got rid of the knob and tube wiring and the lead-based paint, we have new copper plumbing, we have inconspicuous forced-air heating, a gas log insert in the fireplace, etc.

When it comes to the Mark II, I doubt anyone is more nostalgic about theirs than I am--after all, as I've noted in previous posts, our Mark II belonged to my deceased parents and was our "family car" when I was growing up. Like our house, we've gone to great lengths to keep our car looking period-correct as we've maintained/restored it over the years. But, like my father did almost 50 years ago, we've put radials on the car (Cokers, for the record) and we've also put in modern lap belts to replace the early belts he had installed when the car was new (and, of course, we use all the modern, vastly improved fluids when we service the car).

My point, I love historic things and I'm as emotional and sentimental about Mark IIs as anyone can be, but not so nostalgic than I'm prepared to unduly risk the safety of everyone who rides in the car at highway speeds just for the sake of being totally accurate to tire standards c. 1955 instead of c. 1965, especially when virtually no one can tell the difference without getting down on their knees to read the sidewalls. Besides, when I really want to risk my life, I've got a stock 80 year old Ford with 19 inch bias plys and mechanical brakes for the complete antithesis of a modern driving experience.

Can you really tell whether these are bias or radial?

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz238/markii1956/IMG_3246.jpg

[Barry Wolk]

Yes, I can tell, it looks so horrible that you have to sell me the car for $100.

[Rick Payton]

Keith was simply stating that times have changed as has sociological mindsets. We have become a society of self centered overweight slouching couch potatoes who wants things instantly and disposable - low maintenance.

Speaking of tires, how many cars now have whitewalls on them today? Why, one reason people have become too lazy to clean them.

Why has oak furniture and floors become so popular? Because they don't show dust or wear as much as mahogany or rosewood. Why so many drink cups in a car? Because we have again become so lazy that we can't get up in time to ease into the day or act civilized and go inside to eat - or eat like a family. And how many homes are even built with formal dining rooms now?

Point I am making is that times have changed and so have designs of cars to accommodate that. True, radial tires were around in 1956 but rare and tires in general were tall and narrow which is different than radial tires of today. The circumference being different will effect the turning ratio and consequently the speedometer reading.

Eric

I would disagree that today we are lazy... we have no time to clean white walls or mop the oak floors.... we are working longer and harder than the previous generation thanks to technology ... Wiat wasn't that supposed to make our lives easier:confused:

[Barry Wolk]

So I think it is absurd to try to impose a modern driving experience on our collector cars. That philosophy leads down the slippery slope to Hot Rodding.



FYI, the John C. Lodge and the Ford Freeway opened in 1955. The Davidson Freeway opened in 1943. Our cars were designed to be driven at freeway speeds. They just hadn't developed good tires yet.

[JBTC3]

Doc,

What tires do you have on your car? BTW, I will submit my 2 cents in that I do not own a daily driver. I drive one of my classic (old) cars every day. Not the same one every day but something. This week I'm driving a '64 T-bird I have. I drive them on the freeways in the Los Angeles area. I love the feel of the old cars. But I do not like wandering around in the freeway with bias ply tires. So, I put radials on them all. I also like to listen to music of the period while driving. So, in my Mark II I have hidden an ipod hookup in the glove box that plays through the oem radio and I listen to 50s music. I also do have a pep boys $8 cupholder that I put on the floor so I can have a bottle of water or a cup of coffee while I'm driving.

Other than that, I'm 100% stock. But I do think that having radials, some tunes and a place to hold a drink means I can pleasurably drive the car in more situations. And they were meant for driving weren't they?

[Barry Wolk]

In the last couple of days I've asked around to verify my contention that there was no engineering change between cars built with radials and those built with bias-ply.

Not a single engineer, designer, mechanic or parts person can produce a even a scintilla of evidence that shows that '50s cars were designed specifically for bias-ply tires.

Spindles, bearings, control arms, tie-rod ends, ball joints. Not a single one, in the parts books, differentiates a radial suspension from a bias ply suspension.

Myth busted.

[Shawn Newcomb]

In the last couple of days I've asked around to verify my contention that there was no engineering change between cars built with radials and those built with bias-ply.

Not a single engineer, designer, mechanic or parts person can produce a even a scintilla of evidence that shows that '50s cars were designed specifically for bias-ply tires.

Spindles, bearings, control arms, tie-rod ends, ball joints. Not a single one, in the parts books, differentiates a radial suspension from a bias ply suspension.

Myth busted.

I agree, but alignment settings are often changed slightly to optimize the radial tire technology.

[Barry Wolk]

Agreed, but there is no mechanical difference.

[Shawn Newcomb]

Yes, agreed.

[Roger Zimmermann]

The rims are thicker to prevent failure as the forces exerced by the radial tires are higher than with bias ply tires.

[Barry Wolk]

I will give you that, Roger, but that was another unknown when the car was built as radials were mostly used on airplanes at that time.

Statistically, wheel failure has not proven to be a big problem as a slow leak flat tire would be the results, not catastrophic failure.

I think the biggest benefit to new wheels, aside from solving a potential clearance problem, is that the hubcaps don't fall off nor do they make the cacophony of noises they used to make. The old wheels are thoroughly modern as they have the safety ridge that new wheels use. The only difference between the wheels is the gauge of the steel.

There are a ton of Mark IIs riding on radials and original wheels right now. I'm not advocating that everyone needs to change wheels, although I would surely not use spacers to avoid the upper ball joint clearance problem. Those are NEVER the right solution, IMO. I will go with the purists on that one.

[crystal59]

Doc,

What tires do you have on your car? BTW, I will submit my 2 cents in that I do not own a daily driver. I drive one of my classic (old) cars every day. Not the same one every day but something. This week I'm driving a '64 T-bird I have. I drive them on the freeways in the Los Angeles area. I love the feel of the old cars. But I do not like wandering around in the freeway with bias ply tires. So, I put radials on them all. I also like to listen to music of the period while driving. So, in my Mark II I have hidden an ipod hookup in the glove box that plays through the oem radio and I listen to 50s music. I also do have a pep boys $8 cupholder that I put on the floor so I can have a bottle of water or a cup of coffee while I'm driving.

Other than that, I'm 100% stock. But I do think that having radials, some tunes and a place to hold a drink means I can pleasurably drive the car in more situations. And they were meant for driving weren't they?

Did you put front disc brakes on the thunderbird. Makes a big difference. Stock on 66. Gary

[Barry Wolk]

The brakes on my Mark II are as good as the brakes on my '77 TC. In fact, the Mark II stops better as the rears on the '77 tend to lock up.

The key to good brakes on a Mark II is matching the shoe arc to the drum arc. Maximum contact from day one keeps the shoes from glazing as the heat is dissipated evenly.

Actually, your shoes are most likely arced properly because of use. They are often glazed, though, reducing their friction potential. You can sand off the glaze and restore good braking. Take great care not to breath the dust. It's a good time to look at your brake cylinders to see if they are leaking. Brake fluid will make your brakes very grabby, but not work very well. Rear axle seals can sling some 90wt onto the shoes, too. If they're soaked, they're shot.

Everyone that's driven my car loves the brakes.

[Doc]

Doc,

What tires do you have on your car? BTW, I will submit my 2 cents in that I do not own a daily driver. I drive one of my classic (old) cars every day. Not the same one every day but something. This week I'm driving a '64 T-bird I have. I drive them on the freeways in the Los Angeles area. I love the feel of the old cars. But I do not like wandering around in the freeway with bias ply tires. So, I put radials on them all. I also like to listen to music of the period while driving. So, in my Mark II I have hidden an ipod hookup in the glove box that plays through the oem radio and I listen to 50s music. I also do have a pep boys $8 cupholder that I put on the floor so I can have a bottle of water or a cup of coffee while I'm driving.

Other than that, I'm 100% stock. But I do think that having radials, some tunes and a place to hold a drink means I can pleasurably drive the car in more situations. And they were meant for driving weren't they?

I have Coker radials. I purchased them on recommendation from Jack Rosen.

[Pat Marshall]

Coker radials here!

[2MarkIIs]

no doubt a radial tire is much better but im rockin some correct repop bf goodrich 8.00x14 bias ply tires on my 64 galaxie and honestly i love driving with them. Yea radials would be much better but ill bomb down I-75, 696, 96 or any freeway here in michigan comfortably, i just watch for those ruts. My mark has bias plys too but ive yet to drive the car......

[Barry Wolk]

My '55 Porsche came with 5.00-16 on 3.25" wide wheels. The car came with 2" whitewalls from the factory. The "Continental" Cabrio was the luxurious grande dame while the lowly Speedster was the stripped down version. It came with blackwall tires, no side windows, a crappy stick-built top and only half a windshield.:) The Porsche "Continental" cost nearly what a Cadillac cost so they dressed her up with wide whites.

I looked high and low for a replacement radial, almost settling on a motorcycle tire. The construction of the tire was right, the problem was that the tread came too far up the sidewall to look right. Since I posted the idea on the 356 site several gave tried motorcycle tires on their Pre-A cars and claim that the handling is amazing.

I did a bunch of measuring and then a bunch of guessing and found a real old design Michelin X tire that was still made for the European market. It was a 5.50R16. I had Diamondback procure a single tire for me and test fitted it. It barely fit, as is the normal problem for the Pre-A cars.

I bought a set and was able to drive 70 instead of 55 and I no longer have the pulling problem associated with rutted highways. Now it goes exactly where I point it.

Yes, this is just anecdotal evidence that supports the vast majority of Mark II owners posting here, and from my experience, who have already installed radials with stellar results. So much so that the LCOC now allows radial tires.

[JBTC3]

Did you put front disc brakes on the thunderbird. Makes a big difference. Stock on 66. Gary

Nope. Original brakes.

[crystal59]

Nope. Original brakes.

Worth considering for the long term at least. Gary

[Rick Payton]

I just drove my car for the first time with the new wheels and tires... what a difference!!! I love my goodyear tires with the logo in the white part... IMO they look very period correct.....

[crystal59]

I just drove my car for the first time with the new wheels and tires... what a difference!!! I love my goodyear tires with the logo in the white part... IMO they look very period correct.....

By new tires I assume you mean radials. Gary

[Continentalfan]

Got the radials installed on 3077 and what a difference..much more improvement than I expected checked the alignment and needed a bit more toe in so that would have had an added influence on the improved steering ..went with the 225 75 R in order to maintain good clearance and even at that (and with the new wheels) have only 3/16" tween the top ball joint and the tire on the pass side with 1/4" on the driver side. Not quite enough to make me comfortable so will create some spacers on the C&C machine and have welded to the inside of the wheels to give another 1/2" for good measure. Will report further once the tranny is in order and can take on a good long drive. Thanks for your wisdom and suggestions on this one.

[Barry Wolk]

New wheels are smarter than spacers, really.

[Dan]

New wheels from Rodparts Warehouse
American Classic WW Radials: made in America, not Mexico
What a difference!

[RODPARTS]

New wheels from Rodparts Warehouse
American Classic WW Radials: made in America, not Mexico
What a difference!
Thanks Dan! I'm glad the wheels worked out well for you!
Jay

[Continentalfan]

Have new wheels to go with the new tires ordered with 31/2" backset excpected to get the clearance needed came up a bit short.

[Barry Wolk]

I don't understand how you could have a problem with new wheels with that backset.

[Continentalfan]

I didn't actually measure the backset on the new wheels so can't say for sure that I got what I ordered..they had to come from far away as did the tires (everything is far away from here) so when they finally arrived they were mounted and put on the car with no prior checking. When I got the car home and put it up in the air it was then that I checked the clearances.

[Barry Wolk]

I would check the outer bearing on the side that has the smallest clearance. If it's loose it will make the tire come too close to the upper ball joint. Take the weight off the wheel before checking or you won'y get an accurate idea of what's going on.

[Continentalfan]

Just checked both front wheel bearings...they are solid with not enough room for another notch on the castle nut.

[Barry Wolk]

I suppose there could be a gap difference from upper and lower ball joints that are worn. If a lower were worn more than the upper the tire would tip inward, I think.

[Mad Scientist]

Take a wheel off and measure the backspace. It is sounding like you have a set of stock wheels.