Cursive, why learn it?

[Barry Wolk]

My father is 84 years old. He's left-handed. Back in the day it didn't matter which hand was dominant, you learned to write right-handed. Something about the left hand being sinister, or something ridiculous like that. Being forced to write cursive with his right hand made his writing worse than most doctors(what's with that?). His means to deal with it was simply to print things that needed to be understood. He gravitated towards aeronautical engineering where the printed word is the norm. He ended up getting a degree in advertising and never used cursive again. I learned cursive in grade school, but by the time I got to HS papers were required to be typed, double-spaced, so I had no need for cursive, and have never used it since.

My wife is a retired college professor that likes to wax about the way things used to be and laments on the loss of cursive as the norm. My response was that I thought it a total waste of educator's and student's time to learn something that is rarely used anymore. I think an extra dose of spelling and punctuation would serve students far better than fancy handwriting. Her response was, "How will people develop a signature?" I say, "Who cares, as long as it matches what's on your ID, why do you need to learn cursive?" I asked, "When's the last time you sat down and wrote a letter to someone?" Her response was, "Many, many, years. I do like to hand-write thank you notes, though."

Is that worth using sparse educational resources for? Your thoughts?

[Joseph Stebbins]

As a recovering architect I could wax enthusatic about how nice it is to write letters and I do actually write them as they seem more connected. I also still use a Parker 75 or a Pelikan fountain pen (no cartridges!) However, realistically for 99% of the population these are academic problems that have absolutely no real use in the world. Getting my staff to produce an actual complete thought in an email is hard enough!

But then again there is a certain romance about the way things were (even though they wern't) and I still like driving old steel, writing letters (heck I even have a few people I write to that I fold the letter instead of using an envelope) and sketching my ideas by hand.

I still have a computer and a truck mind you - but no TV.

[Barry Wolk]

I will acknowledge that cursive as an eye-hand coordination teaching tool is a great one for an early mind, but wouldn't the same time spent on drawing, of any kind, teach more about expression than rote learning of fancy writing. I can't tell you how many people I encounter that can't express themselves enough to draw a simple diagram of their bedroom, let alone their whole house.

In your trade, am I correct that cursive is never used in technical drawings nor construction notes?

Don't all the legal documents you deal with tell you to print your name and add a signature?

[Joseph Stebbins]

In your trade, am I correct that cursive is never used in technical drawings nor construction notes?

Don't all the legal documents you deal with tell you to print your name and add a signature?

In reality no one except for a few old timers and a sparse number of practitioners who are shooting for snob appeal to wealthy clients draft anything by hand. In the old days drawings were penciled carefully on to linen and then inked over with india ink and possibly colored washes to make stunnnig drawings with notes in both a careful block and for some things like note titles and captions - cursive. These days your lucky if the guy at the computer CAD'ing the design has ever drawn anything on a board - heck some of them couldn't find a pencil if their life depended on it. Most drawing boards sit in the partners offices as set pieces and to keep your coffee off the floor - good luck finding a parallel bar that works!

No even the seals and signatures are generally electronically applied and quite often now a paper set of docs for any project over $1MM most likely is simply for submission to the city. Most contractors want the sets online and will mark up with PDF markings and email requests for information.

Oh Brave New World...

[budster]

I learned cursive in 'elementary school' years ago. I was never good at it. I did develop a distinctive signature which has stayed with me over the years although these days with arthritic hands is is getting hard to write correctly. Then I got a job as a draftsman where I honed my printing skills which were extremely readable (they had to be). Needless to say throughout my life if there is something important that I have to make note of I still print it so I can read it at another date.

My wife taught 7th & 8th grade math and is really upset that they no longer teach cursive in school. I have seen the kids test papers and even their printing skills are terrible, especially when they need to write an answer expressed in words.

My belief that learning cursive gives you motor skills that help later in life. Kids these days rely so much on computers have the attitude of 'Why write when you can type it on a computer and print it out' Oh, and then they don't bother to learn how to spell as the computer does it for them.

off my soapbox...........

[Barry Wolk]

It doesn't take good cursive to learn good printing. It's the other way around. Wouldn't she have been happy to read legible printing? I don't know about you, but I find cursive very hard to read when people vary into their own "styles".

I'm not saying that someone shouldn't learn cursive, I just think it should be an elective, like Latin or art. If I spent my working hours addressing invitations I'd want to know cursive, but I can't think of another occupation that requires it.

I would agree that drafting and drawing accomplish the same thing. Those are skills that would benefit you throughout your life.

[Don Keller]

Hey Barry,

I tend to agree with your observation that cursive is likely to soon become obsolete. Unfortunately, so are printed books; playing outside as a kid; and learning how to do things like many of us on this forum learned as a child. I have a good friend who is a college professor here in Jackson and it is depressing to hear how things have changed. College students can't be tested with essay questions because they can't write coherently, so multiple choice is predominate. I could go on and on, but my point is that there is an actual dumbing down of America.

When you and I went to school, college was at least theoretically, for education rather than employment. Statistics now show that a dramatically low percentage of males particularly are going to college. We hear more and more that college is a waste of time. For learning laundry lists and dates, I would agree. However, can you imagine fully appreciating a painting without having had fine arts? Personally, although I didn't realize it at the time, I did learn many things which were applicable during my working life.

I say this realizing that there are MANY who are self taught and have achieved much more than I and are much more inteligent. So, back to your observation, I agree that cursive will likely go the way of short-hand for the good reasons that you mentioned. My concern is that our grand children seem to be learning less and as a result, are loosing their creativity. We are becoming obese, angry people. It's a shame as there's so much to learn and so little time! Thanks for providing a glimpse of your non-mechanical side.

Don Keller

P.S. If those in the future can't write cursive, they won't be able to read it either. They will be wondering what that scribling above "Mark II" meant on that old gasoline powered vehicle at the museum. ;)

[Barry Wolk]

Don,

I am a tradesman with barely a semester of college. Maybe my view is skewed as I've been self-employed my whole life. I've never had to deal with the corporate structure where a degree is the price of entry. I've had to rely on my writing skills, honed over time to make my point to my customer. My wife has more degrees than a thermometer and is a member of the Grammar Police. She has been instrumental in making sure that I toe the line, but I'm not educated, formally, I just play one on the web.

Edit: I'm a proponent of the German two-tiered form of education. I would have benefitted greatly from going to a trade school, rather than college.

[Don Keller]

Barry,

You and so many others on this forum are gifted. You are obviously one who has been a life long learner as well. I think it's neat that recent research has shown that the way to replace lost brain cells is by learning new information. For those of us who have just been part time hobyists as far as cars go, the Mark II should test the validity of that research. I'm an old dog ready for new tricks.

Thanks.
Don

[Roger Zimmermann]

You have to learn cursive writing just for the day when there is no electricity or your computer has a crash!

[Dave Ferreira]

Thank you Roger.

[Joseph Stebbins]

You have to learn cursive writing just for the day when there is no electricity or your computer has a crash!

My business partner Michael's accountant asked him if he could borrow his laptop for a recent trip to DC. Michael said "sure thing!" He went to his desk and grabbed the legal pad he always uses and said "It's got a 50 page memory and only crashes when you do - it never runs out of batteries either!"

[richroni]

You have to learn cursive writing just for the day when there is no electricity or your computer has a crash!

Doesn't help when your ink cartridge goes empty or you ball point dries out or your pencil breaks.

[Barry Wolk]

True, dat. :D

[Roger Zimmermann]

Doesn't help when your ink cartridge goes empty or you ball point dries out or your pencil breaks.
No risk: I'm using them every day! The computer too...

[Hal W May]

WOW-This is great. Maybe it's just me-but-Why is it that when we learned to type in school, it became "rote" to type without looking at the keyboard, but it's almost impossible to do that on a computer keyboard. Maybe it's just me!! I've wondered more than once-How many members on the forum are JEOPARDY addicts?

[richroni]

It's all a generational thing. Once upon a time the elders looked at someone using an abacus and said "Tsk tsk"

[Barry Wolk]

WOW-This is great. Maybe it's just me-but-Why is it that when we learned to type in school, it became "rote" to type without looking at the keyboard, but it's almost impossible to do that on a computer keyboard. Maybe it's just me!! I've wondered more than once-How many members on the forum are JEOPARDY addicts?

My hands are far too large for a keyboard. XXXL. Teachers gave up as my hands would cramp up. I'm a two-finger typist and have to look at the keyboard.

I time dinner so that we can sit in front of the tv during Jeopardy and yell out the answers. A common phrase heard is, "Where did I pull that from?"

[AU_MK2]

Hmmmmm... seems to be a worldwide trend
I never could get the hang of cursive that could actually be legible ended up printing, not sure that was very legible at times.
I think that spelling and grammar are more important especially in the SMS/texting generation as I've seen that creeping over to written works.

Barry .. the Doctor scrawl must be something that is taught worldwide as well go figure.

[Pat Marshall]

Along the same time since clocks are overwhelmingly going to digital and everyone has a calculator or a computer, why teach how to tell time on an analog clock or anything to do with mathematics?

[Barry Wolk]

Geez, that's exactly what I was saying, Pat. :rolleyes:

Anachronism, much?

Do you read Hebrew? The Bible was written in it.

[Pat Marshall]

Maybe learning to read Aramaic was like learning to write cursive?

[Barry Wolk]

You've obviously missed the point, entirely. You're probably old enough to have used a slide rule. Did you teach your kids how to use it?

[Pat Marshall]

Geez.....!

[Barry Wolk]

My point, exactly. Just because something was used in the past doesn't mean it needs to be taught in the future. My point is, and always was, that we could make better use of teacher's and student's time by concentrating on things that they will actually use. Like, oh, I don't know, maybe learning how a checkbook works, before they get out of high school.

[richroni]

Along the same time since clocks are overwhelmingly going to digital and everyone has a calculator or a computer, why teach how to tell time on an analog clock or anything to do with mathematics?

'Cuz when your wingman tells you "There's a bogey at 2 o'clock", you'll know where to look. :D

[Barry Wolk]

That's my problem, I don't have a wingman.

[Pat Marshall]

Probably no one covering your "6" either, I bet.

[Barry Wolk]

No need, but nice jab, anyway.:rolleyes:

As long as you're being snide, you never did answer my question. Did you teach your children to use a slide rule?

I didn't think so.

Point, and match.

[Pat Marshall]

Humor, not a jab was intended & sarcasm not understood.

[Barry Wolk]

Sarcasm on the internet is futile.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Did you teach your children to use a slide rule?


I still have 2 of them; need one?

[Barry Wolk]

Yes, I "need" one like I "need" cursive. Not.

Do you use yours, or a calculator?

[Roger Zimmermann]

Do you use yours, or a calculator?
All the calculation for the Toronado was done with a rule. Now, I'm using a calculator...It would be easier with the scale 1:10!
I'm not sure if I could use a rule again...They are well hidden!

[Barry Wolk]

Is mine not an apt analogy?

[richroni]

Is mine not an apt analogy?
I would say "not". One is an art the other a science.