Survivor vs. Restored

[mcdo5302]

Just wanted to see what reactions I would get to this. I myself am a restorer and like things to be shinny and new like when they rolled off the showroom floor, but I am finding people that are saying leave them the way you found them in thier original state. What do you think?

[depmike38]

If by survivor you mean an all original complete vehicle in good running shape I'd personally just leave it alone and drive it, mainly because it would be fun to operate and a Wal-Mart door ding wouldn't cause a panic attack. On the other hand I wouldn't fault another owner in the same situation for wanting to put it in showroom shape. It's just a matter of personal taste and neither way is wrong. IMHO

[Shelly Harris]

My car is a driver which I would like to be as original as possible looking bright and shiney. If I replace anything that's original with an upgrade then the original stuff is in a box for the next owner if they want to re-install it. My car is not sitting in a museum. I want it reliably on the road.

[Barry Wolk]

I agree with Mike, but prefer to see impeccably restored cars on the Concours circuit.

I keep hearing the term "over-restored". That makes no sense to me unless you like seeing wavy panels and orange-peel.:rolleyes:

[Mad Scientist]

Some time ago I remember reading an article about refinishing antique furniture. In the author was astonished that someone would even think about destroying the original finish, even though it was all dried out crack and chipped, as this would spoil its valve and was not the way the original craftsman had made it.

I was thinking yeah, but if originally it had even a trivial scratch the craftsman probably would not have let it out of his shop without first fixing it. So if years latter if someone thought that his piece was worthy of restoration I sure that would make him feel every proud.

[mcdo5302]

I am really on the fence with this one. The car we purchased is supposed to be a survivor with 18,400 miles. The exterior is very nice, but it had been repainted sometime back. The interior is complete, but the front seat is very weather checked. I am wondering do I redo the front seat and the back or just the front or leave it. Also from what Barry has told me the interior was gray and creme/white which the seats are but the carpet looks very green. It appears to be orignal and is complete with the Continental tunnel tag, so I am wondering if it faded that bad or Continental's gray was really a shade of green. I also apoligize for not posting pics yet, I haven't been out to the shop for awhile.

[Barry Wolk]

Matt, were finding that many things on these cars were not color fast. If you think of the technology in use at the time it's no surprise that things have faded.

Someone here has a nearly clear steering wheel with a slight green tint to it.

Most cars of this age, survivor or not, have had some, or total repaint. It's only new once.

[mcdo5302]

Thanks Barry. I suppose I could look under the seats to see if the color matches in area's where no sun was present. Is your car in its orginal color?

[Barry Wolk]

No, my car was originally a Introductory Unit in black that was damaged in shipment to Chicago.

It was painted metallic BRG in 1966, when it was given its attractive metal boot over the convertible top. Unfortunately, when they did that they removed the hydraulics to lower the stack, making it a manual top.

It's current paint job was applied in 1994, I believe. I was told that the restorer bought the dark blue leather and had the paint mixed to match. It's Blue and my name is Barry so I call the color BlueBarry.:)

[mcdo5302]

Very nice BlueBarry. I am familiar with your cars story. I figured I better read up on it because it is so unique. How does the aftermarket leather compare to orginal material?

[Barry Wolk]

I was told (a lot that wasn't true) that it is Bridge of Weir leather, but I don't know that to be a fact. It's more supple than cars with original leather as it hasn't dried out.

They did use one piece of leather for the bolsters, like the originals.

[Nick DeSpirito]

I am really on the fence with this one. The car we purchased is supposed to be a survivor with 18,400 miles. The exterior is very nice, but it had been repainted sometime back. The interior is complete, but the front seat is very weather checked. I am wondering do I redo the front seat and the back or just the front or leave it. Also from what Barry has told me the interior was gray and creme/white which the seats are but the carpet looks very green. It appears to be orignal and is complete with the Continental tunnel tag, so I am wondering if it faded that bad or Continental's gray was really a shade of green. I also apoligize for not posting pics yet, I haven't been out to the shop for awhile.

Matt,

The original grays that they used on the interior have a green cast to them. So much that they are sometimes mistaken for green. I had a hard time matching carpet for my car. I went through books and books of swatches at the carpet store until I found the perfect hue to match the leather.

If the seats aren't cracked through and just crazed, you can have them repaired.

[mcdo5302]

Thanks, Nick. Unfortunately, the front seat is cracked through in many spots so a replacement looks imminent. Any advice on what leather should be used for replacement? One thing I wanted to share with everyone is the car has its orginal windshield and being that the orginal owner was a Pennsylvannia senator it has a parking sticker for a government lot right in front of the rear view mirror. A nice little touch. Ill post a pic hopefully tonight.
Wiki on Mr. Clark:
"Joseph Sill Clark, Jr. (October 21, 1901 – January 12, 1990) was a U.S. lawyer and Democratic Party politician in the mid-20th century. He served as the mayor of Philadelphia from 1952 until 1956, and as a United States Senator from Pennsylvania from 1957 until 1969. Clark was the only Unitarian Universalist elected to a major Pennsylvania office in the modern era."

[Nick DeSpirito]

Matt,

The original leather used in the Mark II's was Bridge of Weir from Scotland. What I would do is take a piece from the car and have a leather supply match the grain as close as possible.

[MKII]

Matt,

The original grays that they used on the interior have a green cast to them. So much that they are sometimes mistaken for green.


That is also true in my case. My car's code is D22-1E6L D22 (Medium gray iridiscent, 1957 color only) 1E6L (Trim code, 1 leather/leather, E Deep Gray biscuits, 6 White bolsters, L Deep gray Leather welt)

The medium gray iridiscent is really more of a light silver, and the deep gray in the original interior is, well... not really gray. I could swear it is dark green, and not from discoloration, as my car does not show any. Dashboard, leather seats, doors, carpet... everything is green combined with white bolsters.

Victor

[Shawn Newcomb]

the deep gray in mine as well as the carpet always came across as greenish too

[Mad Scientist]

My car has the white & gray interior. I send samples to a leather company to get some dye to redye them. They custom mixed the colors and did a prefect match. However the gray came in a bottle marked "green".

[mcdo5302]

I am glad to here that everyone with a "gray" interior is seeing the same green color. I was starting to wonder if the car which was billed as all orginal possibly had a reworked interior. Thanks

[Doc]

The gray to green transformation seems to be a universal condition with the Mark II interiors--esp. on the carpet and the interior plastics--although I think the original gray had a pretty strong green tint to it right from the factory. I know that when I spoke to Jack Rosen early on about the restoration of our interior and didn't have our codes handy, I got no farther than saying it had "dark gray/green carpet" before he stopped me and told me the correct code...he'd seen and heard it plenty of times before.

[Chuck Lutz]

Doc, I think the old plastics are the worst. I have the prettiest green steering wheel that used to be blue. Pretty green but it doesn't fit with the car. I'm told the resins of today are much better.

[Doc]

Hey Chuck, what are you doing? That's a picture of my steering wheel, isn't it?

You're exactly right--the steering wheels are the biggest offenders. Yours and mine are identical at this point. It's the single worst feature of our interior (ours is just as green and has lots more cracks than yours appears to have in the picture).

It's the one place in the interior where I've gone against my general tendency--to bring this back to the original topic of this thread. I think that these cars deserve to be restored to their "original" condition, unless you happen to have one of the really rare low mileage survivors that still look new. I like a really well restored car (even if it's a mild resto-mod); I personally don't think these cars are like old wood furniture or bronze statuary, for example, where a little patina enhances the appearance. But, having said that, I've left our steering wheel in its aged condition out of sentimental attachment--as I've noted before, this was my mom's car.

[Chuck Lutz]

Doc, LOL.. could be yours but I think it's mine. I do collect pictures for future reference, especially nice clean shots from under the cars.
In any case, I found someone (not too far from you in SoCal) who remakes our Mark II (as well as others) plastics with today's resins. This will be my next major purchase (after getting the Carb back on and humming).
And, I do mean major. The set of wheel, turn signal, shifter knob and both interior door handle knobs are about $1,100 with your wheel sent to him. He will also supply the core and when it's ready, you sent yours to him he will exchange without a core charge beyond your initial payment in advance. He will also correctly fit the horn ring to work properly which is a bit tricky.

[Doc]

Chuck - Is that Koch's (not sure on the spelling)? I know them from the air-cooled VW world and they're a fixture at the local shows and swaps--at Pomona, for example, every month. I know they do stuff besides VWs, but haven't ever talked with them about the Mark II.

[Chuck Lutz]

I had to go find it again... Not Koch's
http://www.qualityrestorations.com/home.html

I've talked to Dennis there. Great guy who loves to talk cars. They're in Poway.

[Doc]

Thanks for the reference. I'm not familiar with them; I see on their website that they will be at the Grand National show next weekend--we're planning to go--I'll try to talk to them there and see about the other plastics (and the wheel, because then it will really stands out too badly). The prices you mentioned sound about like what everyone else is charging for that type of work that I'm familiar with; so if the quality is good, the prices sound reasonable.