Fabric discrepancy

[Shawn Newcomb]

In a marketplace post on this site Stank-67-98 shows us this picture of the matlasse interior fabric samples from a showroom sales book.

http://picasaweb.google.com/stankozdrowski/MKIIShowroomSelectionDetails?feat=email#5421134068 603486722


Currently on ebay, Dennis Foley of Ohio represents an original unrestored matlasse and leather interior in which the pattern is similar, but obviously not the same in that the design forms rings that don't touch one another.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30665738@N08/sets/72157622969540777/show/


So, what do the experts think?

Is Mr. Foley mistaken about the seeming originality of his interior?

or

Was the sales book put together prior to production for the purpose of taking advanced orders and was thus erroneous in some details that changed at a later date?

or

Was there an actual change in the fabric at some time after production had started like the carburetor change, nostrils change, etc.. thus resulting in Mark IIs that are original, but have different patterned interiors?

or somthing else entirely?

[Shawn Newcomb]

Also, does anyone know the name or whereabouts of the New England mill that was chosen to produce the stuff?

[Don Henschel]

Sigh!:( Thats a tough one. But if it's complete with alot of TLC could be a very nice car! That would be a good one for off frame restro started with a rotisserie. The interior cloth(of the car in need of TLC) is just like mine, of which was hidden under a newer layer from a later re-upholstery. A green MarkII looks like a good choice because all the steering wheels I see turn to green;).
My older authenticity manual shows other nylon materials as well. Who the heck knows! Anything is possible with these mystery cars. After joining this forum, I am discovering many new surprises;)

[Shawn Newcomb]

Yes, this book also lists leather, nylon, matlasse, and broadcloth interiors or any mixture of two above.

Not to mention DSOs, I suppose they would do anything for the price they were charging. Quite frankly given the era and some of the personalities that purchased these cars, I am surprised no one ordered fur...but boy if a customizer put fur in one today for a rapper the purists would sure be screaming.:D

[Shawn Newcomb]

Don,
The only other Mark II I have ever seen in person was a two-tone on the infield of Lowe's Motor Speedway in NC @ the Food Lion Auto Fair in 2001 or 2002. If memory serves over that amount of time, it was something like light yellow lower and light blue roof. I had only had mine a couple of years and to that point was unaware that two-tone cars even existed so that siting was really two firsts for me.

[Shawn Newcomb]

Just to confuse matters...same book, different page, different patterned matlasse swatch. What gives!?:confused:

http://picasaweb.google.com/stankozdrowski/MKIIShowroomSelectionDetails?feat=email#5421134160 226640130

[Barry Wolk]

I am surprised no one ordered fur

Mouton carpet was fitted to numerous vehicles. Mouton is sheep skin wool carpet.

[Mark_II_Mark]

Don, I was thinking that this particular Mark II would be the perfect candidate for a mild custom Mark II with FWD & removable hardtop. Because of all the rust issues with this vehicle, lots of body work is going to be required, so why not take it to the next logical step.

Some of the custom Mark II's on the Jalopy Journal website are pretty amazing & personally, the next step in the evolution of the Mark II if it had continued in production.

This car just needs a new owners with LOTS of design smarts & VERY deep pockets...

[Chuck Lutz]

Just to confuse matters...same book, different page, different patterned matlasse swatch. What gives!?:confused:

http://picasaweb.google.com/stankozdrowski/MKIIShowroomSelectionDetails?feat=email#5421134160 226640130

Shawn - I saw the same listing on Ebay and thought of our discussions here regarding Matelasse'.
Now that swatch is pretty close to Foley's, isn't it?

[Shawn Newcomb]

Barry,
I believe I saw on Jay Leno's garage his Bentley's or Rolls come with sheepskin mats today, too.

Did any other car besides Elvis' come with a leather headliner?

How about a breakdown on all the interior types by percentage.

My guess is leather was most common, then leather/matlasse, then all cloth interior, then nylon. Right or wrong?

Today, I would think a car with a cloth interior would be "restored" (using artistic license) with a leather interior today anyway because it is easier and cheaper. The cloth interiors will (and probably have) continued to disappear one by one.

[Shawn Newcomb]

Chuck- yes that swatch looks to be the same as the material in the ebay car and that found buried under layers on Don Henschel's car.

The weird thing is that it is on the second page of matlasse from the same sales book and the swatches offered on consecutive pages aren't even the same pattern:confused::D

[Chuck Lutz]

Here's the breakdown of interiors and colors ... Lot's of DSO though.

[Chuck Lutz]

Chuck- yes that swatch looks to be the same as the material in the ebay car and that found buried under layers on Don Henschel's car.

The weird thing is that it is on the second page of matlasse from the same sales book and the swatches offered on consecutive pages aren't even the same pattern:confused::D

Ya Know.. I'm wondering if one Matlasse pattern was paired with leather and the other pattern paired with broadcloth.

[Nick DeSpirito]

Chuck,

That sounds like a logical answer. I've never seen that other pattern before and since I've also not seen a car with a broadcloth interior matched with the matelesse fabric, that could be the answer. The only cars I've seen were in leather and Matelasse, which all had the wreath pattern.

[Chuck Lutz]

I love my leather/leather but I really like the matelasse' look (either of them). As we've talked about here previously leather interiors, while commonplace today, were fairly new then. The "patterned fabric" look was more common for cars in that era.

[Shawn Newcomb]

Chuck - interesting idea. Sounds logical to me. They are paired with another type fabric in the book aren't they?

But...the way the 2 matlasses are paired in the sales book are the opposite of the way they appear on the 2 cars mentioned (ebay car and Don Henschel's) they had circle pattern paired with leather. The book shows circle pattern with broadcloth....hmmm

Right about now I'm seriously wishing my car wasn't reupholstered by a previous owner. I would like to see for myself. It was a matlasse/broadcloth car [1 of 15 produced so I will never see another one:( ], but was redone in a material that is neither. Nice looking, but no help at all.

I guess that is the problem with assumptions.:o I didn't expect Ford to be offering two similar versions of the same fabric. You might figure one Matlasse would cover it wouldn't you? Maybe that is why they lost money on every one?:rolleyes:

[Chuck Lutz]

Interesting....
You're right. I just looked up the vin and the interior is correct 3H1C for the pictures shown. I wonder if the factory just mixed them up randomly?

[Nick DeSpirito]

Or, maybe a customer had their choice of pattern?

[Chuck Lutz]

I thought about that too but wouldn't that make it a DSO?

[Nick DeSpirito]

If it's offered in the details book, I don't think so.

[Shawn Newcomb]

History is a mystery, but Nick I think you may be on to something there...


Chuck- those 2 thumbnails were fantastic! I really liked the breakdown.
PS- totally wrong on my guess about the order of popularity for interior fabrics...Nylon and leather combo is 2nd most common, hmmm...wonder what that looks like. Anybody have one of those?

[Chuck Lutz]

The interior breakdown totals only 2684 which the book further explains elsewhere "Total reflects the number of units described in the invoices available, not actual production. Remember there were a bunch of invoices missing due to the fire.

I've looked through every book I have including the Authenticity Manual and nothing is said about the 2 styles of Matelasse'.

[Barry Wolk]

That's not why the invoices are missing. There are no invoices for about 300 early cars as they were "Introductory Units" like mine, and a few others here.

Introductory Units were owned by Ford, hence a Production Order, but no invoice. The cars were to sit in dealer showrooms and were not for sale, until the pipeline had filled. They then invoiced the dealer through a different channel.

The fire at the Rotunda did not affect the Continental files as they were still stored in the Pilot Plant, where the cars were assembled.

[Shawn Newcomb]

Chuck that's right about the invoices. I forgot. Mine was one of the missing ones when I inquired about it.

I hear your doubts about 2 types of matlasse. I mentioned previously that I think that sounds odd, redundant really. Surely the beancounters had some say...

[Barry Wolk]

Shawn, read post above yours.

[Shawn Newcomb]

and as Barry pointed out mine was an Introductory Unit.

[Barry Wolk]

The Production Orders are stored in the archives of the Benson Ford Research Library at The Henry Ford, Dearborn, MI. You may call them and they will gladly sell you a copy of the original document.

There are some Production Orders missing, but very few. Many of the P.O.s have the original owner's name but none of the IU's do, just the dealer's or distributor's name.

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/barry2952/1%20Mark%20II%20docs/Jan3101.jpg

The most interesting one, to me, was the car that was sent to Derham to be made into a convertible. Many have said that the car came down the line as a convertible. Why would they have sent it to Derham, then?

Why would it have had a headliner, if it had no top?

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/barry2952/1%20Mark%20II%20docs/Oct2401.jpg

[Shawn Newcomb]

Good questions. Hadn't I heard that the convertibles were "damaged in transit cars" anyways?

When I sent away for the invoice which I didn't receive as you know, they did send the PO (copy) for a dealer- Someoneorothers Motor Cars, Philadelphia PA

[Barry Wolk]

The two convertibles made by H & E were damaged by their "bags" flapping in the wind. The writer of the letter I found is incredulous that the cars could be so badly damaged in such a short trip from Detroit to Chicago.

I just found a picture of the cars in their bags on a transport. I'll scan it.

[Shawn Newcomb]

what is the punchout on your PO for bumper with license plate? Is yours recessed like the rear? Or is that referring to the overriders on some cars and not others? For what it is worth, mine has them and I like the look better without them. One day I will remove them I hope the chrome underneath is good.

[Barry Wolk]

That'll probably leave a hole. The original chrome on these cars was pretty nice. It should be in decent shape. It'll buff out!

My car had them above and below the front bumper. I kind of like them. I saw a car without either. It looked more Thunderbird-ish.

[Mark_II_Mark]

Back in the '50's many states did not require a front license plate. If the car was being sent to a state that did it, was equipped with the "Front Bumper With License Plates" item which was simply the regular bumper with the chrome outriggers.

As an aside, '56 Baby Birds (& later) going to CA were equipped with what was referred to on the invoice as "Safety Package B" for an additional $22.50 (BTW, an oil filter was optional equipment at an additional cost of $8.50)! This package consisted of the padded dash, padded visors & possibly seat belts, at least the belt restraints. The safety-nazis were alive & well in CA-CA even way back then! Thats why if you ever come across a Baby Bird WITHOUT the TBird emblem centered in the dash, it was more than probably originally a "Safety Bird". The holes for the emblem were punched in the dash metal but the emblem was not installed as it would "crush" the deep (1/4" thick) safety padding.

This mandatory "safety package" does not seem to have been required on CA-CA bound Mark II's but the padded dash & visors are listed in the Mark II Encyclopedia as being available, so if production had continued, they probably would have been required in the "Nanny States".

[Chuck Lutz]

That's not why the invoices are missing. There are no invoices for about 300 early cars as they were "Introductory Units" like mine, and a few others here.

I'm sure the introductory units are a large group of those missing but the form I received from Benson when I ordered my production order said many were missing and it mentioned a fire (in the 70's I think).
I loved reading Axel Holm's story of finding the invoice in the accounting department at the Lincoln plant in Wixom, MI. When Mr. Holm asked Mr. Boyd of Ford why they weren't in the depository in Highland Park he replied that those documents, when stored, had to be marked with dates in the future to be removed and destroyed. He said that someone in the comptroller's office at Ford recognized the the documents might have future value and never sent them to the depository but were kept in the accounting office at the Lincoln assembly plant.

[Barry Wolk]

I believe that Lowell told me that the Mark II database came from the Production Orders and not the Invoices as those records were far more complete.

I wonder about this fire you speak of. Was it at the Pilot or Wixom plant?

[Chuck Lutz]

Lowell's comments could clear up my dilemma about my production order being sold to some guy and dealer in Indy and it actually being listed in the Mark II Ency. as the correct history of a local CA car.. Interesting.

I understood the fire to have been at Benson. I have more info at that office. I'll look Monday.

[Chuck Lutz]

Barry, are you saying that the Production Orders were more complete? That's the only paper I have. Benson told me that some of the production order were missing and the gave a range of VIN#'s. Can you get copies of the invoices too? Reading back again, Mr. Holm's story says invoices.

[Barry Wolk]

I believe that Jack Rosen has the invoices, but I could be wrong.

[Nick DeSpirito]

I had heard that the missing invoices were destroyed in the Rotunda fire. Did anyone hear that too?

[Barry Wolk]

Lowell told me something else that was interesting. I was told by a judge at my only LCOC event that the buttons on my seats were the wrong color. The judge insisted that the buttons were always the same color as the surrounding field. Mine are the color of the bolsters. Lowell told me that the P.O.s showed that about 5 cars were built that way.

I wish he would join us. Somebody else call him and bug him. He has a computer, he just won't communicate on the Web.