Trunk lid hinges

[Roger Zimmermann]

In the Technical Data book, the hinges for the trunk are of the parallelogram type. I saw pictures from cars with more conventional hinges. Is one type MY '56 and the other one MY '57?

[Barry Wolk]

Roger, I believe the torsion hinges were installed early on as a running design change. My car has the friction hinges and I think Nick's car has the torsion hinges.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Thank you Barry for your comments. I saw also pictures of car (s) with the first type of hinges (maybe yours, I don't remember).

[Chuck Lutz]

This change between the scissors to torsion bars, reportedly happened the second week of January 1956 (Buddy Holiday). I remember reading this because my car has the scissors type but was built on the 6th of January.

[Barry Wolk]

I'd say that's a pretty definitive answer.:)

[Chuck Lutz]

Yes, If trivia were worth anything, I wouldn't be getting up early to go to work tomorrow :D:eek:

[Barry Wolk]

That does seem to run rampant around here.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Thanks to all for the comments. I did a scissor hinge type for the Avanti model; it's complicated and not very strong. I prefer the conventional type on a model. It depends of course the car I will get to photography and take measures!

[Chuck Lutz]

Roger, I'm amazed at both your patience and your models. They are wonderful and I love the fact that you do them for YOU and YOUR enjoyment.
This thought hadn't occured to me until we started talking about torsion springs and hinges.... you can scale the size of the part but what about tensile strength? I'm in the metal business and strength of the metal, from an engineering stand point, is a big factor. The torsion springs depend on that strength to operate properly. Is this just a trial and error thing to get them to work right or are the parts tempered or heat treated to the "scale strength" or is the "strength scale" already done by resizing the part to 1/12 the original size? Perhaps, I'm over thinking this...

[Roger Zimmermann]

Thank you Chuck for your kind comments. When I was doing the Toronado (it was at the end of the 60s) we had such calculations at the technical school I was visiting (I'm an automotive engineer) and I tryed to calculate the front springs for the model. It ended with a nice formula and diameter which was not available!
At the end, it was trial and error: I did in fact 2 pairs of springs (they are torsion bars on the Toronado); one pair was done with a too heavy spring material (2.5 mm in diameter) and the car would barely deflect. I went with a smaller spring, probably 2 mm and I was lucky to have the proper stance of the front end and the appropriate "feeling" as a suspension.
For the Avanti trunk lid I did not try to calculate (I could not do it anymore, these calculations are long forgotten!), I just constructed the hinges, took a spring steel I thought was correct in diameter, did 4 pieces and tried. I had a lucky hand, the springs are the ones you see in the attached picture; the trunk lid stays open and the efforts on the pivots are not exagerated.
The rear springs of the Toronado and Avanti are of the semi-elliptical type, like the Mark II. My springs are made with tempered steel, heated at the ends and in the middle to form the eyes and to bore the central hole. The one of the Mark II will be done the same way; maybe I will use also the same number of leaves if I can find a thin enough material.
The front springs of the Avanti were too short, the front end was too low. I removed them and did some elongation...I'm satisfied now with the front end attitude!

[Nick DeSpirito]

Chuck's right. The changeover was made in mid-January. My car was built on January 19, 1956 and has torsion bars.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Chuck's right. The changeover was made in mid-January. My car was built on January 19, 1956 and has torsion bars.
Thank you for the confirmation. This kind of hinges has also his difficulties to do, but they are stronger on a model that the other type.

[Nick DeSpirito]

Roger,

You are welcome. Taking in to consideration the length of time it takes to produce a model, I hope I am still around to see it when it's completed. :D

[Roger Zimmermann]

Roger,

You are welcome. Taking in to consideration the length of time it takes to produce a model, I hope I am still around to see it when it's completed. :D
And, due to my age (65 next year) I hope to be able to finish it! Anyway, you will be informed by text and images about the progression of the model. But I have first to finish the other one, find a car in Switzerland to take measures and pictures.

[Doc]

Roger - As one who has an early Mark II with the scissor hinges, I'd have one bit of advice for you: Unless you're anxious to lose a finger (it's an arm for those of us in the full scale world), put the torsion bar system in your model-a scissor hinge model needs to come with a folding bar to keep the trunk lid up when open. There's a reason Ford changed the hinge system in the Mark IIs early on...

[Barry Wolk]

I have the old style and my trunk has no problem staying open. Go figure.

Now, my hood is another story.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Roger - As one who has an early Mark II with the scissor hinges, I'd have one bit of advice for you: Unless you're anxious to lose a finger (it's an arm for those of us in the full scale world), put the torsion bar system in your model-a scissor hinge model needs to come with a folding bar to keep the trunk lid up when open. There's a reason Ford changed the hinge system in the Mark IIs early on...
Thank you for the advise! Anyway, I will do the hinges of the car I may be able to photography. Presently, I'm searching a car in Switzerland. I know there are 2 or 3, maybe 4; I just need to ask the right person or swiss club. By the way, there is a Lincoln and Continental Club in Switzerland; I will ask there.

[Bob Barger]

The springs on my trunk hinges are weakened to the point that I have to use a prop rod to hold it open, not very class. Does anyone have a source for springs? I have checked with Rosen, no luck.

[Barry Wolk]

If you have scissor hinges you can sometimes remove them, peen the rivets, which creates more friction.

You can also try having the spring shortened. One coil should do it, but you might need to remove two. The springs will still be worn, but they will have more strength to keep the lid open.

[Bob Barger]

Thanks for the ideas. I may have a line on someone that will make replacements. I will let you know if it turns out to be true. Bob

[Bob Barger]

I checked with 2 spring places and neither of them do springs that small. I asked about cutting and rebending the end and was told they would have to be heated and temper would be lost. Trying to bend them cold would probably break them. I did notice that the bracket that holds the spring is made in 2 pieces. I may cut the welds and lengthen the bracket, that should be the same as shortening the spring. Bob

[Bob Barger]

I talked to two different spring manufacturers and neither made coil springs that small. Both also told me they could not cut and re-bend the end of the spring. If they tried to bend it cold it would break and if it were heated it would lose the temper. I did notice that the bracket is made in two pieces. the angle piece that holds the end of the spring is welded to the main bracket. I may cut the spot welds and move it back some. This will stretch the spring. Has anyone tried this? Bob

[Chuck Lutz]

Bob, I don't know if this will work for you but I offer it up. I, too had a trunk lid that wouldn't stay up. When looking at it very closely I found that the right hinge assembly looked a bit cocked to the left and the left hinge to the right. As I pushed up on the lid I saw them flex (toe in) a bit and it looked like that was shortening the "throw" of the hinge from the spring.
Figuring there was little to lose and something to gain, I took a crescent wrench open to the thickness of the metal (or was it a vice-grip...don't remember) and cranked them back to straight. In doing so, it aligned the 2 part hinge and seemed to tighten the spring. I believe that the hinge design is partly friction between the two parts of the hinge and "spring assist".
WTH, give it a try.
Good luck.

[Barry Wolk]

I've always suggested to people that they spray carb cleaner into the friction points to take away oils that have been sprayed in over the years. That usually helps a lot.

[Chuck Lutz]

I've always suggested to people that they spray carb cleaner into the friction points to take away oils that have been sprayed in over the years. That usually helps a lot.

Hmmm.. could be. All I know is the lid stays up now. Maybe it's just the fractional added tension of the spring.

[Matt Cashion]

The trunk lid on my Mark II is off the vehicle, and has been for a number of years, the left hinge does not appear connected to the torsion bar that should offer lift when the trunk is installed. The torsion bar that should be connected to the left hinge still has a great deal of tension on it, yet the link from the hinge to the end of the torsion bar mearly rotates on the end of it as the hinge is moved up and down. It's very hard to see under the rear upper body panel where the hinges attach. Can't seem to find any related posts or picture of how the hinge and torsion bar are connected. Anyone seen this problem? Any input would be appreciated---
Thanks,
Matt---

[Nick DeSpirito]

Matt,

There are slots underneath the package tray in the trunk. I imagine the right slots are for the left hinge bar and the left slots are for the right hinge bar. Move the torsion bar that's connected to the left hinge up a notch and see how that works. I had to do this to my car because the trunk lid would not stay up on it's own. Once I did that, all is fine.

[Matt Cashion]

Thanks for the suggestion, but my left hinge "flops" up and down without the load of the trunk even attached to it. Since my original post I took a flexable bore-a-scope and looked closely at the point where the hinge link and torsion bar connect. They appear to have been welded together originally but are no longer. When the hinge is moved up and down, the link just rotates around the torsion bar. Still can't see into the hinge box where the torsion bar passes thru on the left side to see if there is some sort of stop attached to the bar that is keeping tension on it even though it is no longer attached to the hinge link. I know that I can get in with my mig welder and reweld at least half way around the torsion bar to link contact area after removing trunk floor carpets and protecting the area around the left hinge from welding sparks. Haven't tried to release the tension on the torsion bar to the left hinge to see if it can be removed. That may be my next step.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Even if I'm building just a Mark II model and I'm lacking the opportunity to see every detail on a real Mark II, I doubt that the torsion bar is welded to the hinge. I have 3 Cadillacs, the torsion bar is "clamped" to the hinge. I still have trunk hinges from a '59 Cadillac, the torsion bars were not welded. Welding a tempered part destroy the heat treatment, rendering the part useless.
Maybe your torsion bar is broken, look at the other one how it does attach to the hinge.

[Matt Cashion]

Hinge "link" appears to be welded to torsion bar, not the hinge itself. Have not released the tension on the left torsion bar to see if it can be removed for inspection of the end that has the "link" rotating around it when the hinge is moved up and down. Torsion bar itself can not be broken as there is as much tension on it as there is on the right one that takes two men and a boy to move the hinge connected to it. Presently doing prep work to refinish the roof which makes getting into the trunk hinge issue a little difficult.

[Matt Cashion]

OK here's the fix-- Once the torsion bar to the left (broken side) was release (it was under a great deal of tension as the position it was being held in was as it would be with the trunk "closed"). The bar was then pulled out of a connector sleeve between it and the hinge "link". The sleeve turned out to be seized into it's support on the hinge mounting plate. The hinge "link" originally had a "D" shaped hole at the end where it attached to the connector sleeve but because the sleeve was seized it was almost round from rotating on the "D" shaped end of the connecting sleve when the trunk was opened or closed. Once the hinge mouning plate was unbolted and removed, heating the sleeve's support on the plate and driving it out with a brass drift allowed for removing the rust caused by lack of any lubrication in 54 years. Welding up the rounded hole in the hinge "link" and making it "D" shaped again, reattaching it to the connector sleve, lubricating all moving parts, and reinstalling the hinge "assembly" was all it took to make it work like new. The hinge assembly on the right side was then removed, cleaned, lubricated, and reinstalled on principal. Or was it just for fun?

I would recommend that any MarkII owner with this type of trunk hinge set up get cozzy in the trunk with a can of spray lube w/extension , remove the panel covering the a/c evaporator,and with flash light in hand lubricate all moving parts of the trunk hinges every coupe of years. Or just teach your "Trunk Monkey" to do it for you---

BTW-- I two foot length of 1/2" black pipe with an elbow on one end makes a good tool to release and install the torsion bars.

Matt---

[Barry Wolk]

I need a Trunk Monkey.

[Doc]

Come on Barry, those of us with early units don't need a Trunk Monkey, as we've got no torsion bars to lube, we just need that 2 foot length of pipe to prop up our sagging trunk lids as our springs wear out...:D

[Barry Wolk]

I'm 4 years older than the car. I know how it feels.

[Matt Cashion]

A "Trunk Monkey" can do much more than lube hinges--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8avOiTUcD4Y

Matt---

[Chuck Lutz]

Priceless!

[Sean Rollins]

That's awesome. I'll take two!