Carburetor issues

[Chuck Lutz]

How do you get rid of the hesitation on the initial press on the pedal? Isn’t it a dashpot or something that can be replaced or is it a jet? Is the only way to correct it to rebuild the carb?
Usually, I can joggle the pedal enough at the start to get pasted it. Now it seems to be getting worse. I stalled 3 times at lights yesterday. No only is it annoying and embarrassing, one of these days I’m going to get ‘rear-ended’.

[markiient]

Check the vacuum advance. It's usually the culprit.

[Shelly Harris]

Also could be either the ignition or carb. I had it until I installed an Ignitor and then rebuilt the carb. In the carb it is probably the "accelleration" jets hesitating. When I first had my carb returned and I was running, that problem was history. Unfortunately things have gone sour and I'm waiting till next week to get running again. But I defer to Jack.. he's an expert. BTW jack, I have the A/C vacuum adle advance.. it looks nice. Won't know for a few weeks how it works.

[Chuck Lutz]

Thanks guys. I have the Ignitor II on the car and that works well.

Is the vac advance adjustable? or are you thinking leaking hose?

[markiient]

The rubber diaphragms deteriorate. We cut them open and replace them with new.

[Keith W Colonna]

The hesitation when starting from a dead stop indicates a carburator "accelerator pump" problem. The "pump" is actually a small piston with a leather pump diaphram which deteriorates over time or from ethanol gas.
I had this problem,,,,rebuilt this part and it's now operating properly...same on other antique vehicles I have.
The dashpot adjustment prevents the engine from going to idle speed imediately...so that you can brake quickly in a turn and still mash back down to resume speed without stalling the engine.
I've made adjustments on mine per the tech manual and this problem (which was very dangerous) was resolved.
I'm not a mechanic though....what do the experts say?

[Barry Wolk]

Where did you get the new plunger?

[Nick DeSpirito]

As stated in a previous post, I had this same problem. I am going to the restoration shop today. I will ask who made the leather piston for the accelerator pump and see if I can get contact info.

[Nick DeSpirito]

As stated in a previous post, I had this same problem. I am going to the restoration shop today. I will ask who made the leather piston for the accelerator pump and see if I can get contact info.

The company my restorer got the leather piston for the accelerator pump from is Daytona Parts Company. The web site is www.daytonaparts.com My restorer says he's the best carb guy in the business.

[Keith W Colonna]

I had my MKII carbs professionally rebuilt from a local shop and don't know where they got the parts.
For my boats, I got the kits from an on-line supplier, carbkits.com. Most shops don't want to sell the kits alone, they want to sell the service.
The kit comes with the complete piston with the leather installed already.

[Chuck Lutz]

In furtherance to our earlier discussions, I received confirmation from an outside mechanic that my hesitation problem is the accelerator pump. (Or as his caveat goes, "99% sure”). I spoke to both the rebuilders suggested here and was very impressed with both. With basically a coin toss (mainly for the stated turnaround of a week +/-), I’m going with Pony. Along with changing the carburetor, I’m going to fix the choke tube in the intake manifold and remove that ridiculous JC Whitney accessory on my exhaust manifold. I’m assuming that the manifold will have to be removed to remove the old tube (what’s left of it) and install the new one..
I’m looking forward to losing the hesitation problem and fully enjoying the driving experience again. I’m hoping to drive to Ventura for the Western region gathering in May. I would love to see a huge Mark II turnout there.

[Barry Wolk]

The pick-up tube should not be installed into your exhaust manifold as exhaust pressure and heat will make it into your carb. The tube was only meant to pick up hot air radiated from the manifold. They probably didn't work for the Mark II at all as the manifold is much thicker than normal and would have taken a long, long, time to heat up all that mass.

[Chuck Lutz]

[QUOTE=Barry Wolk;3911]The pick-up tube should not be installed into your exhaust manifold ...QUOTE]

Exactly! The added copper tube was only picking up heat (and not very well) from the exhaust manifold. I'm told the new intake manifold tubes are SS so they should last longer.

[Chuck Lutz]

Better Picture.

[Nick DeSpirito]

Chuck,

If you're going with Pony, make sure you are getting a leather piston because when I got the rebuilt carb from them, it had a blue neoprene one and it split after only a few months and that's what caused the hesitation in my car when accelerating at a traffic signal.

[Chuck Lutz]

Good call, Nick. I'll check with them about that. Did you ever tell them about it? Warranty?

[Nick DeSpirito]

No, the guy at the restoration shop that was working on my car ordered the leather one from the guy in FL. and he sent it up right away.

[Mark_II_Mark]

Choke stoves ROCK!!! Especially the nasty, old, GENUINE MAN MAD ASBESTOS cover that was originally sheathing the tub. It's enought to make an EPA worker blow a brain tube...

[Don Henschel]

In furtherance to our earlier discussions, I received confirmation from an outside mechanic that my hesitation problem is the accelerator pump. (Or as his caveat goes, "99% sure”). I spoke to both the rebuilders suggested here and was very impressed with both. With basically a coin toss (mainly for the stated turnaround of a week +/-), I’m going with Pony. Along with changing the carburetor, I’m going to fix the choke tube in the intake manifold and remove that ridiculous JC Whitney accessory on my exhaust manifold. I’m assuming that the manifold will have to be removed to remove the old tube (what’s left of it) and install the new one..
I’m looking forward to losing the hesitation problem and fully enjoying the driving experience again. I’m hoping to drive to Ventura for the Western region gathering in May. I would love to see a huge Mark II turnout there.

Well put about that JC Whitney "fix" I wouldnt worry about SS or regular steel. Just replace it. Mine is still good, after all it's 50+ years old(my 50 Merc sedan with auto choke still works to)and still works OK. You will notice the fresh air in(on other side of carb) is filtered through your air filter unlike the buckshee JC Whitney where dust that settles on your manifold gets sucked in.
If my memory serves me correct, the last kit I installed in my Mark (with a Holley) had the blue accelerator pump as well. I guess I'm very lucky, but I lubricated it very well when I installed it. I will look out for a leather spare for the next kit install.

[Don Henschel]

I’m assuming that the manifold will have to be removed to remove the old tube (what’s left of it) and install the new one..

Sad to say yes because that manifold is hunkered down quite low between the cylinder heads. Look at the bright side, it probably needs a new coat of black paint anyway.:) Just be glad its not an FE or newer series with the cork gaskets in the front and back which leaked oil if not installed correctly. Personally I don't change carburators, unless they have major damage(ie: water or hammer) or are missing. I just by a carb kit( I always keep a spare or two). Someday I will post a how to on disassembly, cleaning , and reassembly. Trust me, they are not that complicated! The only problem with my "Tea Pot" is I let the car sit too long with stale gas in the tank and my carb got varnished up last summer. The needle and seat got glued wide open. I dismanteled the carb on the engine, used a bit of spray carb cleaner and reassembled.

[Don Henschel]

Oh! PS you will have to locate that brass 90 degree press in fitting and short pipe with an SAE fitting to the choke housing. Don't forget the asbestos sleeve on it:rolleyes:

[Barry Wolk]

When I got my first mechanic's job at a gas station my uncle owned I was taught that the carb always comes off the car to work on it for fear of dropping something into the carb and not noticing until the screw or washer or whatever got sucked into a cylinder.:eek:

My car is running fine except for the lag on acceleration. Where can I get just the leather plunger? I called one place one of you recommended and was told they only sold kits.

[Barry Wolk]

Oh! PS you will have to locate that brass 90 degree press in fitting and short pipe with an SAE fitting to the choke housing. Don't forget the asbestos sleeve on it:rolleyes:


Is there a safe substitute for the asbestos sleeve? Is it really necessary? Is it protection for us or insulation to make sure as much heat as possible gets to the choke?

[Don Henschel]

When I got my first mechanic's job at a gas station my uncle owned I was taught that the carb always comes off the car to work on it for fear of dropping something into the carb and not noticing until the screw or washer or whatever got sucked into a cylinder.:eek:

My car is running fine except for the lag on acceleration. Where can I get just the leather plunger? I called one place one of you recommended and was told they only sold kits.

Did you watch "My Cousin Vinny"? That first statement sounded familiar. When I had to move the car out for apraisal pictures and gas was overflowing all over the engine while it was struggling to run:eek: I fixed it on the car, with extreme caution of course. I'm not sure about getting them seperately. Check with places that specialize in carb rebuilding, they might be able to help you. If not use a blue one(they cant be all bad) lube it very well when you install it. If I remember you can adjust these pumps for a longer or shorter stroke. Different holes are used for this. Just a hunch, check your timing. Late timing causes a flat spot as well. If you have it retarded quite a bit for regular gas.

[Don Henschel]

Is there a safe substitute for the asbestos sleeve? Is it really necessary? Is it protection for us or insulation to make sure as much heat as possible gets to the choke?
It's just an insulation. I wouldnt worry about it too much when you put it on.:rolleyes: Just dont inhale the fibers;).Personally I think fiberglass is worse for you!

[Mark_II_Mark]

Xxxxxxxxxxx

[depmike38]

Something I've run into since having Pony redo mine a couple of months ago is that they don't set the float level to factory specs and I was wondering if anyone might have an idea as to why not. Let me say that at least as far as initial start up, idle and appearance they did a good job(I'm still trying toget it to a site where I can correct the brakes and drive it) other than an initial slight leak at the top gasket as it warms up. When I called them they had me remove the top cover to make sure trash hadn't pumped up into the seat and I discovered the float was set a 1/4" lower than any data I can find on the carb. They had it at 1/2" below the top. I moved it to the correct level and replaced the gasket with one I had and though it runs no differently the leak is cured. I called Pony thinking they and set it up wrong(which was quite irritating due to the cost) and they were adamant that the book specs did not allow the carb to work correctly and to change it back. Has anyone ran into this on with the t-pot an the MK II or the T-birds?

[Mark_II_Mark]

Both of the Pony Teapot rebuilds for my Mark II & '56 TBird ran perfectly right out of the box without any tweeking. Pony advertises that they "re-eingineer" the Teapot & with the number that they've done over the years, I think that they figured out & corrected the original Holley flaws built into the carb. I'd leave the float level where they had it as the "book" was probably incorrect when it was first published because of the original design flaws. The carb wasn't in production or use that long & Holley probably just went on with their next snafu project & wrote off the 4000 model, & consequently, the owners of vehicles equipped with that particular carb...

[depmike38]

Were any of the 368 exhaust manifolds cast with a heat pick-up in them. Mine has one coming out of the manifold where it looks like a large(9/16") nut is turned into it. As I've mentioned before the intake tube is blocked off. Does the one everyone seems to have with the tin box on top of the manifold look like this with the cover(box) removed? I'm trying to decide if I have a manifold from a 50's Lincoln of some type. Other than that everything is the same.

[Barry Wolk]

People mistakenly drilled into the exhaust manifold, especially stupid on the passenger side as the flow is blocked by the damper until the engine compartment heats up. The choke mechanism is meant top operate on hot air, not exhaust gasses.

The box that you see on others is meant to pick up heat from a larger exhaust manifold area and funnel it, so to speak, into the choke.

Someone here had that set up and it burned their choke mechanism and plugged it with soot.

[Chuck Lutz]

This is a sketch of how mine's set up. I'm glad it wasn't drilled and piped to the choke. I was told by Pony that if the teapot Holley choke is shot, the core is worthless to the rebuilder. As for the set up that I have now, I'm not even sure it works at all.

[depmike38]

O.K. as a follow up to the first question do all of the Continental/Lincoln 368's use the same exhaust manifolds, particularly on the right side and do they use the same damper?

[Barry Wolk]

I believe the Lincolns still had X frames and the exhaust went under the car, not around the frame, like the Mark II, so no, their manifolds would have pointed down, not to the side.

[Mark_II_Mark]

What you've got is called a "choke stove". They're a '50's-'60's fix & are always available on Ebay & work well as an alternative to the hassle of replacing the original.

Most Baby Birds have lost their original pig iron choke tubes over the years to rust & corrosion & the Baby Bird suppliers Casco & Concours Parts offer stainless steel replacements that you can probably modify by bending to fit on the Mark II...

[Mark_II_Mark]

Exhaust manifolds for the other Lincoln/Mercury 368 family of y-blocks were called "Rams Horns" because of how they looked & yes, they did exit directly downward. There MAY have been an exception to the above for the Mercury Turnpike Cruiser but I'm not 100% certain about that.

The Mark II exhaust manifolds are specific to the Mark II only, just like the exhaust manifolds on the Baby Birds are specific for that vehicle, not all other Ford/Mercury y-block products...

[Chuck Lutz]

Chuck, If you're going with Pony, make sure you are getting a leather piston because when I got the rebuilt carb from them, it had a blue neoprene one and it split after only a few months and that's what caused the hesitation in my car when accelerating at a traffic signal.

Ok, I clarified this with Pony this week. According to them the originals weren't leather. (I find that hard to understand as it seems commonly accepted here that they were). They were some type of material with a long name but, according to them, not leather. Today, these are made from a material with an even longer name that is impervious to today's additives and fuels.
As for the blue neoprene (?) one, I told him about Nick's experience and he did say that awhile back they were unable to get the super-d-duper, NASA approved material that they are using now and they unequivocally stand behind it. (Fingers crossed) :eek:
Now, I've got to get the choke tube changed.. I'll start a new thread about asking for help with that.

[George]

Chuck how was your experience with Pony? Did you get the carb back, is it on the car and running well?

I am considering using them to do mine, although I called today and got caught in the automated phone maze and wasn't able to really talk to anyone. They request you to ship your carb to them and then they will call you. How did this work?

I was also reading on their website all the disclaimers about the Holley "Tea Pot"- although they claim they have solved many of the problems. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of this? Have the boiling over issues be fixed? The hesitation off the start? Anyone converted to Carter?

Help

[Chuck Lutz]

As I said earlier, when the carb arrived it was a thing of beauty. I haven't gotten it up and running yet because we're in the middle of several things. When I went by the shop to question how they got the choke tube out without removing the intake I was informed by the owner that his guy, in fact, had misunderstood and NOT installed the new choke tube and they were going to have to remove the intake manifold re-do the carb installation. The only up side to this is that I now can paint the intake manifold black as I had intended to do.
I know I've heard that the Tea-pots had some history with fire I'm not well versed on why. I know Pony includes some disclaimer on this too.
I'll let you know when we're up and running.

[Barry Wolk]

The problem with the T-pot is that the float chamber is open to atmosphere. When the float needle sticks, gas will spill out of the top of the carb. Whatever doesn't get past the air cleaner gasket will get trapped in the oil bath cleaner. get a backfire and you have a toaster on 4 wheels.

I just talked to John at Pony today. He was amazed at the condition of my carb. He thinks it might be OEM with only the 13,000 miles I have on the car. However, it has not been remanufactured to their specs.

I had to do a bit of arguing with him about installing an electric choke. When I explained that I was blocking off the intake exhaust passages be totally understood why I wanted an electric choke, but was still against it from a purists standpoint.

[Chuck Lutz]

Barry, I don't understand about the elec choke and blocking the intake exhaust. Was this on a previous post? I'm curious.

[Barry Wolk]

Yes, I started a post on it. It's an old hotrodders trick, to keep the intake manifold from burning the paint off. The electric choke will start the car nicely and it will warm up just fine. The exhaust crossover is only to speed warm-up. Not real necessary in warm weather, which is the only time I use it.

John said the only drawback is that the electric choke opens too soon for his tastes. I could play with some resistors to delay opening if necessary.

This fix would also eliminate the need to repair the tapered tube that passes through the manifold. In effect it just would be passing through a dead air space.

The fix is to use a .0020 stainless shim, cut to the shape of the gasket, inserted in-between the head and the gasket.

Nobody looks under my hood at Concours. They certainly don't remove my air cleaner to see if my choke tube is original.

I want to be able to use the car reliably and not have to paint the intake manifold every two years.

This, in my case, is unnecessarily ugly.

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/barry2952/1%20Mark%20II%20docs/IMG_3966.jpg

[Chuck Lutz]

Ok, I like this... I'm in a warm climate and think this is what I should have thought about before trying to re-do a climatic choke. I didn't know there was an option beyond the JC Whitney Choke-o-matic BS.
So does the electric choke go in place of the bi-metal spring thingy? The .002SS shim between the head and the gasket? Where?

[Barry Wolk]

Actually, Shelly's carb is fitted with an electric choke. It looks just like a regular choke except it's heat is produce by an electric coil inside the unit.

I suppose the shim could go on the head or on the manifold. I'll probably cut it so that the top of the blank-up is slightly visible above the gasket for alignment purposes. The exhaust runner section of the manifold is separate from the intake section so the shim shouldn't interfere with torque values or sequence.

[Shelly Harris]

I had to do a bit of arguing with him about installing an electric choke. When I explained that I was blocking off the intake exhaust passages be totally understood why I wanted an electric choke, but was still against it from a purists standpoint.

Barry: I bless the day I decided to go with the electric choke. When I was last in Chicago my garaged car was ice cold, outside temp 15F, and the engine had not been started in five weeks. I keep a battery tender on the battery. I entered the car, gave the gas pedal one quick snap down to the floor, then turned the key for an instantaneous start. The engine cranked for only a second. I'm going to Chicago next week and possibly I'll be able to post up a picture similar to yours of my engine w/o the air filter. My rebuilt Carter looks great. No more stumbling off the line, or hesitation on accelleration. The guy that rebuilt the carb told me that most people who convert to electric will remove the heat tube and turn a screw into the manifold to seal it up. I elected to cut the tube and cap it off.

Most everyone says to connect the choke's power wire to the + side of the coil. That's how I have it, and all is ok. However, I have since been told that it's not a good idea as the ignition (coil) can suffer from the constant draw by the choke's heating element. Rather, the wire should be connected in the fuse box to some circuit which is always hot when the ignition key is on. I wonder if there's any truth to that???? Anyways, you'll be very happy with the electric choke I'm sure.

[Chuck Lutz]

I'm sold!.. but where does the shim go? Between the head and exhaust manifold where the weighted damper is to close off the bypass?

[Chuck Lutz]

Also, is Pony doing this in concert with your rebuild or will you put it on after it comes back? As I'v already gotten mine back from them, I suppose this can be done with carb still on the car, or does it have to come back off?

[Barry Wolk]

No, you misunderstand. The damper will be fixed open or I'll remove the baffle. That will allow free flow out both sides. The SS barriers (2) go under the flanges of the center exhaust port in both sides of the intake manifold. This will prevent hot exhaust gasses from entering the intake manifold at all.

Hope that helps.

[Barry Wolk]

Also, is Pony doing this in concert with your rebuild or will you put it on after it comes back? As I'v already gotten mine back from them, I suppose this can be done with carb still on the car, or does it have to come back off?

The choke can be replaced with it on the car. The intake will have to come off to install new gaskets and the thin SS shims.

[Shelly Harris]

The damper will be fixed open or I'll remove the baffle.

Barry's talking about the "heat riser" on the passenger side exhaust manifold. I'm lucky in that I need only manually turn it to the open position and it remains stuck there. I guess you could wedge someting in there or as Barry says remove the baffle. You know another side benefit of keeping that side open is that the exhaust system on that side will not suffer from condensation hanging in there because of it's slower warm up.

[Chuck Lutz]

Ok you mean where these two ports have burn the paint off. Got it. Thanks.

[Chuck Lutz]

I hate to sound like Colombo, but ... one more thing...
Is the only reason to block the port to keep the paint from burning off or is it required for the electric choke installation? I would think the blocking is optional but wanted to confirm.

[Barry Wolk]

Yes, the only reason to block the ports is to keep the paint from burning off. An electric choke kicks off faster and is more reliable, IMO.

Shelly, I don't believe that hooking too the coil would be detrimental unless it' feed wire was too small for the additional load of the heater element inside the choke.

[0bird2]

There are aftermarket heat risers available that do not have the flapper in them. They are just a casting that replaces the stock heat riser. I use one with a standard vacume choke and have had no trouble with cold starting and running. I have the heat cross over blocked down to 3/8" on both sides and get enough heat to operated the choke and have very little discoloration of the intake manifold. It just takes a few minutes longer to get the choke to full open when the hot exhaust is not being forced through the manifold by the heat riser flapper. I started the car today when it was 34 degrees outside and about 41 in the shop, it did just fine.
An electric choke should be hooked up to the output terminal of the generator or alternator. This shuts off power to the choke if the engine should die, leaqving the choke in whatever position it was in when the engine stopped. If it is hooked up to the coil or any other source of power and the engine dies but the power is left on, the choke continues to open and when you try to restart, the choke is wide open (no choke).

[Chuck Lutz]

This is all great info.
Today I spent some time at the shop. The heat tube and riser is installed and the manifold painted black looks great. We started the car cold with some stalls but once started it seemed to be running pretty rich so they'll play with that a bit. As the car warmed up there was a noticeable increase in temperature when touching the heat tube riser between the ports. So much so, I think it will work fine. I didn't hang around long enough to see if the choke opened or how long that took. I'm going to try to pick the car up tomorrow and shuttle a few Presidents around this weekend for a test drive. All and all I’m getting closer to the smooth running beast for which I’m looking.
… to be continued.

[Barry Wolk]

Have you done the Pertronix II ignition? That's the final piece to the puzzle.

[Chuck Lutz]

Yes, that went in a few months ago. I figure with the new carb, heat tube and Pertronix done the finial timing check will be required to tie it all together.

[Barry Wolk]

You followed the vacuum gauge tuning thread, didn't you?

[Chuck Lutz]

I did with great interest. I think that's the best method. It just makes sense as the vacuum is so important to the proper function.

[Barry Wolk]

The guy at Pony stated categorically that he would not rebuild a carb for someone who would knowingly use a timing light. He was pretty adamant.

Just wanted to clarify that you do not want to hook the vacuum gauge to the vacuum advance line. He said that there's no vacuum present at that tap at idle anyway. You want to hook the line to manifold vacuum, not vacuum pump vacuum as that's a false reading. Un hooking the vacuum pump feed and tapping into that port will give you an accurate reading.

[Shelly Harris]

Chuck: Are you using the original auto choke or going electric?

[Chuck Lutz]

Shelly, we decided to go with the heat tube and the standard choke for now and if that still proves problematic it will be easy to switch to electric.
I was impressed with how quickly the tube heated up but as I said I couldn't hang around until it was up to operating temp and see the choke open.

[Chuck Lutz]

Well, I'm please to report that the newly rebuilt carb and associated heat tube is installed and working nearly perfectly. The hesitation is gone. I'm very impressed with the way the car starts right up. I ran it through it's paces yesterday and with only 2 exceptions it worked perfectly. My first challenge was that it wasn't kicking down like it had but that was a simple linkage adjustment and now works fine. (Although I'm going to need to have the bands adjusted because I'm not happy about the "clunk" when it drops into the higher gear). I still think the car is running rich or perhaps it's just me but I don't think it has the same power as it had. I'll look into that. Pony says they preset the adjustment through testing and I'm not sure if the shop tried to make any adjustments but these should be fairly simple to isolate. I'm very pleased with the job Pony did and would recommend them any time.
Barry, when your carb is back on, I like to hear your results. I know you've spoken to John and with good success.

[Barry Wolk]

I'm thinking mine should be on its way back to me.

[Chuck Lutz]

I'm thinking mine should be on its way back to me.

BTW... they ship via the Post Office Prioity Mail. It takes a few days.