Dead Battery

[Nick DeSpirito]

I just started it up for the first time after sitting for 8 days after the trip back home from the Lancaster meet. When first cranking, it sounded like the battery was low, however it turned over. I backed it up out of the garage and let it idle up to operating temp. I turned it off and tried to restart but the battery didn't have enough juice to crank it. I can't understand why since it did a 152 mile non stop trip home just a week ago and when I got home, I disconnected the battery. You would think it had a good charge on the way home. But I did notice that the gauge needle is just a c hair below mid point and doesn't move even when I race the engine. Any suggestions? BTW, I have a dry battery (proper size 32N repro from Antique Auto Battery in Ohio) in it that's only 6 months old.

Right now, it's sitting in the driveway with a battery tender attached.

[Barry Wolk]

Don't use more than a 10-amp charger. A Tender may not charge it if it's too depleted.

[Barry Wolk]

Test the voltage at the battery with the car off. Test again with it on. Voltage should rise while running. Could be a bad generator, or voltage regulator. Clean all connections before testing.

A bad clock will pull a battery down in 8 days. I disconnected the fuse.

[Don Henschel]

What do you guys think of these batteries. I was tempted to get one to get away from the acid mess, but from what I heard these batteries dont tolerate high charge rate or high charge voltage. Nick, did you ever use a digital volt meter on your charging system when you first installed the battery to check the voltage? A flooded battery can easily take 14.2 to 14.7 but will require more water to be added as the voltage goes up. Also what are these batteries? GEL cell or AGM (absorbed glass mat). AGM batteries can tolerate the same higher voltages as a flooded battery but the charging rate has to be low like Barry mentioned. When you check your running voltage, it should be 14.0-14.2 @68 deg/F If you had a flooded battery up to 14.4 and a bit higher would get you by.

[Nick DeSpirito]

The instructions say that you must not allow it to charge above 15.0 volts. Charging above 15.0 volts will damage your battery and cause it to fail. It says in the event the battery should need to be charged, recharge using a 10 amp charger for 2 hours. A voltmeter reading of 12.84 designates a 100 percent full charge. I had the Battery Tender on for less than an hour (more like a half hour) and already had a green light, so I disconnected it, connected the battery back up on the Neg. side and tapped the key and it started right up. I don't think the battery is at fault. The voltage regulator is new and was put on the car in December of last year along with the new battery. (not that that means they are not at fault just because they are new) Is it possible that the V/R points are out of adjustment? Maybe during the trip home, hitting a bump or something caused this? I didn't notice that the needle on the gauge was riding a fraction below the 0 until I was almost home, but it was so slight, I didn't think anything of it. But like I initially said, even revving the engine should make it move to the right of the 0 towards the C for a second, but it doesn't move at all. I had the generator rebuilt in the mid 90's and have only put a couple of thousand miles on the car since. My clock was rebuilt and works fine plus, I always use a battery disconnect when it is in the garage, and the Lancaster meet was indoors and we all were required to have a battery disconnect by order of the Lancaster Fire Dept.

Don asked "what are these batteries?" It states that "they are very different from standard liquid-acid batteries that are openly vented. This battery is and operates as a sealed battery, recycling all gases internally."

Guess I have something new to investigate here.

[Barry Wolk]

The instructions are wrong. I brought it to their attention but they still haven't changed them. The instructions should say "Do not charge above 15 AMPS", not volts.

I will never do business with Antique Battery again as they do not stand behind their product. I hope somebody else comes out with a tar-top before I need a new one.:mad:

[Chuck Lutz]

I'm not sure if I'm spreading old news here but I was told something interesting that I never knew. I was told that a simple way to check that the generator was functioning properly was, with the car running, disconnect the battery. If the motor stops then it's a generator problem, if not the generator is good.

[depmike38]

I've done it that way for years with generators and alternators but you have to be careful with the alternator systems if the regulator is electronic because you can damage it. Once or twice if we had a dead car and no cables we'd start the good car and leaving it at idle, swap batteries and crank the other one and put the batteries back.

[Barry Wolk]

Tell me about polarizing the voltage regulator. I changed mine, but never polarized it.

[Don Henschel]

You dont have to polarize the regulator just the generator. Polarizing the generator insures the proper magnetic polarity if its new or rebuilt or if the battery is hooked up backwards which happens from time to time. You can even polarize the generator before you install it by quickly and momentarily flashing the field terminal. Positive to the field for negative ground or negative for positive ground like my Merc. Thats why in the manual they tell you to disconnect the wire from the field terminal on the regulator and momentarily touch it to the bat. terminal. If you used a jumper between the two terminals instead of disconnecting you will damage the regulator. In other words you are just giving the field coils a quick zap of power to magnetize the steel in the generator.
In reguards to testing, wether the charging systemis good or not, have your engine running at a fast idle (1200-1500 rpm should work), and use a digital volt meter for accuracy since you are dealing with tenths of a volt. A new regulator might be pefectly OK but may need to be tweaked. I have had to adjust them from time to time. A regulator in Arizona will be set too low for up here in the Arctic:) 13.7-13.8 is what you would use in extreme heat, but up here in winter at -40 you would need 14.5-14.8 volts. Thats why these regulators are temperature sensative. Also when you check these older systems for much better results have them run for 1/2to 1 hour to allow the regulator to warm up. You can have a well used regulator that is perfectly good but just charging a bit low due to the springs getting a bit relaxed. I just turn them up a bit. While adjusting reinstall the cover between tests as this will affect the temperature and voltage.

[Continental59]

First let me say that 600 700 cranking Amp's is really not enough power to crank these babies over. When they get hot the starters draw lots of current.
Some times you need to wait till the engine cools down in order for it to start.
That being said I converted my cars to an industrial Battery with 1250 cranking amps. as opposed to 650 cranking amps .....$80.00 as opposed to $210.00.
Now if you want the original battery that's fine too. Im just sayin......

A fully charged battery will read 12.6 volts.

If its weak than chances are the belt needs tightening and / or the generator needs brushes and a good cleaning.
Check for loose terminals....are they clean?
For more details see DIY014

[Barry Wolk]

Have a tar-top gel cell and have had no problems starting, hot or cold. From my 35 years as an electrician I can categorically state that the mechanical connections of all hot and ground connections will be the likely culprit in hot starts, not the amperage of the battery. Often the real problem is the ground connection on the block.

Also, many replacement cables are undersized for the current carry capacity necessary to turn a DC motor. The biggest battery in the world will do you no good if the cables are undersized. Don't be fooled by the size of the outer jacket, it's the inner wire size that matters. There's a lot of import crap that causes, rather than solve, problems.

I make my own cables out of welding cable. That way I know they're done right.

[Nick DeSpirito]

I have no problem with it cranking hot either.

I used a multimeter and the battery read 11.88 which by Antique Auto Battery's instructions, is only 25% full. According to them 12.83 is full. I left the battery tender on for an hour and a half this morning, but did not take a reading before I started it. It cranked normal and started right up. It is now at an old school auto electric shop which has been in the family for 3 generations. I'm confident they'll find out why it is not charging. I'll let you know the outcome as soon as I find out.

[Continental59]

Barry.......Oh yes ...no doubt....You make an Excellent point Barry.
Poor connections undersized wiring...
Yes Many cables sold today Are not heavy enough and the ends are not crimped tightly ......in some cased they simply pull off!

[Nick DeSpirito]

They still have the car, although they didn't call to tell me they were keeping it. :( I am also having them look at the front driver's side parking light/directional signal. It worked all the way down to Lancaster, but did not when they judged mechanicals. :confused: (That's the only thing that failed to work for the judges.) :) I have a new wiring socket for it and left it with them in case they needed it. Hopefully, I'll know what's up tomorrow morning.

[Nick DeSpirito]

I stopped by to see what the deal was with the car on my way to work. The armature in the generator is shot. I had a used spare that I bought on Ebay last month here at the bakery. Luckily, it's the long case for air conditioned cars, so I ran it up to them. They are going to test it. He might have an armature for the old one too. He's going to look, and if he does, will rebuild mine this way I'll have a spare on the shelf.

The Parking light is fixed. I had bought a pair of socket wires and he installed one. He said the directionals are flashing a little fast. It may need a new flasher. Where is the flasher located? I've never had to replace that before.

[Barry Wolk]

It's behind the panel to the right of the steering column, I believe.

Make sure you have the same bulbs in all the lights. The flashers are draw dependent.

[Nick DeSpirito]

It's behind the panel to the right of the steering column, I believe.

Make sure you have the same bulbs in all the lights. The flashers are draw dependent.

1157's, right?

[Barry Wolk]

I believe so. However, corrosion could cause a lamp to draw more or less, so check all the lights for similar brightness. Your dual filament lamps could be wired backwards, giving the flashers an imbalanced load.

[Nick DeSpirito]

Yes, down in Lancaster, we were trying to get it to work, and Stan K. said the bulb has to go in a certain way. He had put it in and it was bright and said it was in backwards. Is that the way you tell if it's in right?

[Barry Wolk]

The socket is keyed for tabs at different heights while the single contact bulb can go in both ways.

[Mad Scientist]

If the new sockets are wired correctly the parking and tail lights will be the dimmer of the two filaments. The turn signals are the brighter ones.

The flasher is mounted in a spring clip behind the panel that holds the antenna switch and interior light switch. Ford's engineers must have made a mistake, it is actually easy to get to replace.;)

[Shelly Harris]

Ford's engineers must have made a mistake, it is actually easy to get to replace.;)

Maybe the flasher fits in easy, but that small panel holding the two switches is a super pain in the ass to put back on. All those screws to line up properly.. ugh!

[Barry Wolk]

Wimp.:p Mark IIs are easy to work on compared to other cars. I ran a chain of installation departments for CB and car stereo for a couple of years and these things have lots of room to work.

[Don Henschel]

Me too, three hours on my back. Visualize this. I'm 6'5" tall and 280 lbs. I should have taken the front seat out.

I think you have a common Ford vacuum wiper motor, not one for the more sophisticated Continental.

Here you go Shelly.

http://wiperman.com
I have to take my clock and radio out one of these days:( Oh and I have to buy a new battery, and can hardly wait to install it:D I install it by myself, but with most of what I got to lean over the fender and carefully place it in the box (with a thick blanket draped over the fender!)I got used to working on this car because anybody that knows what they are like run away. Oops I forgot to mention the transmission LMAO:D I guess I'm a wimp to.

[Barry Wolk]

I used my engine hoist to drop the last battery in.

[Mad Scientist]

You need two friends with arms like a gorilla to stand on either side and walk it in.:)

[Barry Wolk]

I do have arms of a gorilla, but a back like a pretzel. Ever notice that I tend to suspend my projects from my shop ceiling? They come up to me rather than me to them.

[Don Henschel]

You need two friends with arms like a gorilla to stand on either side and walk it in.:)
You guysmake me feel good:D I'm 5'11 and a whopping 170 lb (on a good day). and don't have arms like a gorilla. I lift mine over and in on the drivers side, where the damn distributor isnt in the way. It pays to not have a back like a pretzel, and a second hand would be wise as well.

[Chuck Lutz]

Please excuse me if I sound glib... real men .. write checks :D

[Don Henschel]

Okay so I'm used to lifting larger batteries and large goodies:p. This is what I usually work on when I'm not working on my toys. A Komatsu 930E truck made in Peoria, and we assemble and maintain them.

[Barry Wolk]

Please excuse me if I sound glib... real men .. write checks :D

I do, for all of my daily drivers. My collector cars I work on myself.

When my wife got her Z3 there was a write up in a car magazine. Their only complaint was that one would have to be built like a gorilla to put the top up from inside the car. I am that gorilla. I'm 6'5" and 280lbs with a silverback to match.:D I have an 8'6" reach flat-footed. That's how I got in the light bulb changing business,:D, no seriously, I didn't need a ladder to hang fixtures.

[Don Henschel]

Please excuse me if I sound glib... real men .. write checks :D

For the real men that write the checks......when they break down we call the "tow truck" and then get the check signed:D

[Chuck Lutz]

Can I get an "Amen"? LOL.
I just choose my battles. I love working on my car. I love figuring out what's the problem. I love the sore bones after it's fixed .....and when there's more to do. I'm just no going to dig the well but I'll install the pump :D

[Don Henschel]

I used to pay the check as well but nobody wants to work on these orphans anymore. They dont realize that the technology is alot simpler than the newer cars. They are scared of the generator, carburator, and the transmission (even out of the car) The transmission is very simple compared to the overdrive transaxle units. The generator is a dream to work on compared to the latest alternators. They don't teach carburators, and generators in tech schools anymore because "nobody uses them anymore" What a crock! I still have people bringing me generators and carburators to work on because the younger bunch are afraid of them. They are still used around here on old farm machinery, trucks and cars. Some people ask me how to convert a generator over because nobody can or will fix it. I have owned my 50 Merc since 1985 (a daily driver in summer other than commuting to work) and have only put in 1 set of brushes, a front bearing and a couple of years ago a new regulator, because one of the coils failed. Most of the alternators in the cars I have owned were not this reliable. The body of this car is a different story. I'm still trying to coax one of the best body shops in the nearby city to work on the repaint. The owner worked on 2 before and just started to frown when he saw another one (mine). The front fenders are a good example. Maby I will have to do most of the work like Madscientist, except for the exterior.

[Nick DeSpirito]

Just got a call, the car is charging like a champ. They installed the spare generator I had. The problem with the old one was that one of the commutators on the armature lifted and wore the brushes down to nothing. He's pretty sure he has a replacement armature and can repair it so I have a spare. I'm going to pick it up in the morning. :D

[Barry Wolk]

I'll bet you're happy. Does your needle move properly. I don't think mine does. The charging circuit is working properly, but the needle barely moves.

[Mad Scientist]

Mine wiggles, not a lot, but noticeable.
The "charge" wire does is not actually connected to it but rather clipped to the back. Its position is critical.

[Mad Scientist]

A Komatsu 930E truck made in Peoria, and we assemble and maintain them.

Nice truck. But where is the license plate holder? How can you drive it on the highway? :D:D

[Nick DeSpirito]

I'll bet you're happy. Does your needle move properly. I don't think mine does. The charging circuit is working properly, but the needle barely moves.

Yeah, can't wait to get it back.

The needle should move toward C when you rev the engine, but shortly edge it's way back down to zero, indicating that the battery is fully loaded again. If you are idling and turn on, say the headlights, the needle would move under zero just a hair, but then move back up when you accelerate. Zero is a good thing. :)

[Don Henschel]

Nice truck. But where is the license plate holder? How can you drive it on the highway? :D:D
Actually thats how we sometimes deliver them to the customer 3 miles away;)
Get 6 to 8 people, portable radios, enough vehicles with warning beacons to block roads and stop traffic, wear reflective high visability vests or clothing, phone ahead to warn that its coming etc. etc. etc., and after all that hassle let her rip down the highway:D
(and make sure nobody sneaks through and gets in the way!:cool: could result in lots of paper work!)
Sorry for getting off topic here:o the topic kind of changed a wee bit from what was posted LOL