For those of you that hate government regulations.............

[Barry Wolk]

Watch this. Our old cars are not as safe as we think they are.

Drive carefully, please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CU-k0XmLUk

[depmike38]

It's an interesting video and there is no doubt that it would probably been fatal in this instance by anyone driving the 59. However if the two cars had met slightly over center the 59 would have acquitted itself much better and while still probably survivable the 09 would have sustained substantially more damage. With the unibody structure like the 09 has, one of the most rigid areas of that car, went through an area in the 59 that is basically nothing but sheet metal until it contacted the cowl/hinge pillar. If you notice in the video the windshield didn't move until then. At this point you hit the leading edge of the front door and off it comes in many instances. The other problem is it would drive the suspension into the footwell. One of the great things about the Mark II was the perimeter type frame as it moved the rails outboard. A whole lot safer than the old ladder frame the 59 had. In fact any modern pick-up truck would have much the same problem. I know that one of the reasons police departments used to love that old LTD/Galaxie bodystyle that was built through 78 was it had a chassis similar to the Mark II's.:D

[Barry Wolk]

Sorry, my BS meter went off.

Center, off center, it wouldn't matter. Who cares about the condition of the car, the occupants would be dead. Game over.

You do know that there are three impacts in a collision, right?

[depmike38]

:DYes, It comes from spending about 10 years as a wreck investigator and about 30 years in law enforcement total and add in my collision shop just looking at wrecked vehicles. I've worked numerous head on collisions where there were no fatalities and some what you would think were minor and had a fatality. For weird I even had one once where a 1500 Gold Wing lacked about a foot going all the way through a LeSabre. There is a lot more to it than two vehicles colliding at 40 mph. Condition matters, relative height matters, angle of approach, vehicle weight, brakes on, brakes off. Didn't mean to rattle your meter

[Barry Wolk]

So, head-on the '59 occupants would have survived? It really doesn't matter about the car damage, does it?

[depmike38]

Don't know for sure but the odds would have been much better for the 59's occupants and the 09's would have had a worse time of it. The thing is modern unibody cars are designed to collapse and absorb an impact. A relatively minor collision does a lot of damage to them but because of their lesser mass they have to absorb the collision otherwise it would be transmitted throught to the occupants. Look under the fender of an older car or as I said even a 09 full-size pick-up. Nothing but plastic, sheet metal, or air down the outside of the frame until you hit the cowl. Then look at a late model unibody full-size car. The front rails and the upper rail are almost all the way outboard of the car. That's my problem with comparisons of that type , there's just too many variables to a collision. :)

[Barry Wolk]

Did you watch the same video I did?

[depmike38]

Actually I did several times, then sort of broke it down into a freeze frame effect so I could see when the passenger compartment on 59 began to collapse. It's an old habit from working wrecks because many times you try to assess damage "backwards" in a way so you can determine impact angles, whether or not either vehicle was braking/accelerating, etc. That's when I realized that the 09 was going down the outside of the 59's frame and didn't hit anything remotely solid until it hit hit the front hinge pillar. If you move each car to the left 6" you hit frame to frame which alters the contact point and the 59 model vehicle fares much better and the 09 fares much worse. In this instance the driver of the 59 has a different problem in that having only a lap belt at best he goes into the dash. There are just so many variables to a wreck it's hard to make a blanket judgement about anything. The main thing most old cars need is a proper seat belt/shoulder harness. This has got me thinking and I'm going to try and find a way to install a set in my Mark II.:)

[Barry Wolk]

So, you are saying that today's cars are less safe for the occupants than cars made 50 years ago? All it takes is seat belts?

[depmike38]

No Barry I'm saying that todays hi tech marvels are not as safe as the government would have you believe nor are older cars as flimsy as that video shows. If old cars are inherently unsafe then we should just put them all in a building someplace and cease operating them. When I started dealing with the practical aspects of accidents 60's model cars were still commonplace in an accident. The last model year I dealt with in an official capacity was a 2008 so I have a bit of real experience with all of them. And I'll take my Mark II and a modern type belt/harness in a collision with that 09 Impala any day. Front airbags are highly overrated against belts that are properly used. That's part of the reason you're told to wear them in airbag equipped cars.
Your serve!:D

[Mad Scientist]

Agree that it all depends on the accident, what you hit and how you hit it.
A new cars airbag blowing up in your face could be just what is needed to save your life, or upon blowup it could break and arm or fling your arm into your face causing you to poke an eye out with your thumb.:o

There are no sure fire 100% safety guarantees. But I firmly believe in the use of seat belts and have them in my car. Would like to add a shoulder restraint but not sure where to anchor it.

[depmike38]

That's the problem with retrofitting an old car particularly when it's a hardtop. Nowhere handy to anchor the pivot point or to hide the retractor. What about the old late sixties style that had the shoulder harness up high against the headliner?

[Barry Wolk]

Your serve!:D

You win. You must be right.:rolleyes:

[depmike38]

:DAre you kidding, I'm married

[Don Henschel]

They should have used a 59 Ford instead of the Chev:D. It probably would have won the battle:D With optional seat belts of course;)

[Barry Wolk]

Actually, I'd rather be dead than live with the injuries from lap belts at that speed. Kissing a steering wheel at 80 mph is not my idea of a fun day.

[depmike38]

That's why I'd like to figure out a shoulder harness set up if I can. My Mark II has the lap belts but your right Barry about biting the steering wheel in a crash and if I remember correctly there were some studies about internal injuries due to lap belts alone. Didn't Ford in the late 60's come out with a separate shoulder harness that sort of stowed along the top of the door? I remember they were a pain to hook up but it was better than a belt alone.

[Nick DeSpirito]

I remember that when my Mom got a new 1970 Olds, it had the shoulder harnesses tucked along the headliner with clips.

[depmike38]

That's the style I'm thinking of to see if I can adapt it. It would probably be the most unobtrusive if a secure point can be found/made to attach it. Main thing I hated about them was the little piece of nylon that would stretch and make them hang down.

[Barry Wolk]

That's why I'd like to figure out a shoulder harness set up if I can. My Mark II has the lap belts but your right Barry about biting the steering wheel in a crash and if I remember correctly there were some studies about internal injuries due to lap belts alone.

Spinal cord injuries left many people without the use of their legs. Internal organ injuries left many incapable of leading even close to normal lives.

[Barry Wolk]

Fortunately, I have no top to attach a shoulder harness to. :) However, Hess & Eisenhardt saw fit to make the support for the convertible top, right behind the door jambs, extremely strong. It's actually a tower shape that is attached to the frame, independent of the body.

The problem is the venues that I show my car in. While not as much about authenticity, I think they might detract from the whole package. I know that seeing shoulder harnesses on a mid-'50s car might be disconcerting to a judge.:eek:

I'm going to touch base with my Ford buddy to see if an engineer could throw some ideas our way.

[Don Henschel]

Same crash test with more detail.
YouTube - Crash test: 1959 Chevy Bel Air