Carter WCFB 4 barrel [Archive] - Mark II Forum - A Forum for Continental Mark II

Shelly Harris

09-16-2009, 10:07 PM

For those owners who have a Carter WCFB 4 barrel (stock in 1957) follow this thread as I relate my experience with removing it, sending it out for a rebuild and reinstalling.

Why rebuild? In my case several reasons.... the automatic choke was not working due to its guts being heavily corroded and actually having huge chunks of metal missing. I decided to upgrade to an electric choke. Once warmed up the carb ran fairly well, but the accelleration jets were hesitating a bit. The carb looked its age! Since this is my "forever" car I decided to take it off and send it to a rebuilder to clean it up for the next 100,000 miles.

For the time being, I'll keep the rebuilder's name anonymous as I'm awaiting the return of the carb next week and if all goes well hopefully I'll be able to praise him. We'll see. Let me add this.... but for the fact that the Carter WCFB was also installed on Corvettes from the mid-fifties up till 1964, it would be near impossible to get parts and a competant carb rebuilder to handle the job. Three rebuilders refused to take it saying that its parts are obsolete and the rebuild kits for it are junk. Two weeks ago, while on a Sunday morning motorcycle ride thru southern Wisconsin I happened upon a big Corvette show... there I found out the guy they claimed is their Carb God. Monday morning I called him and after a fairly long talk he gained my confidence to pull the carb and send it out. It's the Corvette population who make rebuilding this carb a viable alternative. I wonder if 1956 owners who have the Holley "tea pot" hear the samething.

So I've been unable to drive the car for over two weeks now and I'm chomping at the bit to do so. Stay tuned for all developments. I should have taken some pics of the carb before I sent it off, but Ill try to get some on the install.

Oh yes, removing the carb is a no brainer. Disconnect the throtle linkage at the carb. Disconnect the gas line, and the vacuum line at the carb which goes to the distributor advance valve. Disconnect the right side tube going from the intake manifold to the auto choke. Disconnect the left side pre-heat tube going from the intake manifold up to the top of the carb throat. Remove the four bolts at the carb base which secure it to the intake manifold. Once off turn the carb upside down over a bucket to drain out the gas from the reservoirs. Note the air vent holes where gas is running out. I intend to use those vent holes to put gas in the carb before I start to crank after the install.

Shelly Harris

09-27-2009, 04:48 PM

Here's a couple of photos of the engine waiting for return of the rebuilt carb. Too bad I didn't take photos of the dirty carb before I shipped it off. Also note the air conditioning vacuum advance normally on the carb linkage has been removed and sent to Mark II Ent. for a rebuild. Waiting on that too. The engine compartment looks a lot cleaner with the big air cleaner over the intake manifold.

Shelly Harris

11-06-2009, 08:19 PM

It was a long wait but my baby has returned rebuilt. It looks brand new. All fitted out with an electric choke. Tomorrow it gets installed and hopefully I'm up and running. During the wait I cleaned up the valve covers. It's going to look a lot nicer under the hood now.

Nick DeSpirito

11-06-2009, 08:44 PM

Looking good, Shelly. Bet you can't wait to go for a spin. :D

Chuck Lutz

11-07-2009, 12:12 PM

Shelly, I know we had this discussion before about your Vin and mine being 5 apart. I'm curious.. I didn't think they started using the Carter until 57. Is it original on your car or was it changed along the way?

Also, In my quest to figure out the production order and engine stamping connection (if there really is one) I wanted to ask you (before you put the carb back on cuz it's easier to see) if you could tell me that number. As talked about before it's stamped (not embossed) into the top of the engin behind the distributor.

This was mine... 1305

Nick DeSpirito

11-07-2009, 12:50 PM

Chuck,

You're right, the carter was used on the '57's, but I've seen a lot of '56's where the carbs were changed to carter carbs. I don't know why. but I'm thinking that the maybe past owners wanted to get away from the holly teapot.

Shelly Harris

11-07-2009, 06:04 PM

I have always assumed my engine is a '56 and original with the body as it has a cartridge oil filter instead of a spin on. I have also assumed that the distributor and the carb were upgraded to what was on the '57, i.e. the single vacuum advance distributor and the Carter WCFB carb. However I might have an entire engine swap with a '57, just don't know. FWIW it is difficult to see the numbers but to the best of my ability it looks like the numbers on my engine are ?OU9015A I'm really only sure of the last 015A.

Nick DeSpirito

11-07-2009, 09:50 PM

Shelly,

They all have that number. Chuck is talking about the 4 digit number stamped into the block to the right of the 015A. I made the same mistake. I thought he was talking about that one too. Take a closer look at the picture Chuck posted and you will see the number he is talking about. (1305)

Shelly Harris

11-07-2009, 10:06 PM

Duh..... ok I've got it figured out now. I'll check that out tomorrow afternoon after the morning motorcycle ride and I'm back to getting the carb in place. We are having a beautifull weekend here in Chicago and this will probably be the last m/c ride till I get out to California in January.

Keith W Colonna

11-07-2009, 10:07 PM

Virtually anything in the old car hobby can be rebuilt as new....especially carburators. Daytona Carbs has a nice reputation for show quality work.
I just used a local guy for my MKII's, my 59 Capri,and my 55 Capri. I rebuild the simple single barrel Carters on the twin Chrysler Hemis on my antique boat myself...regularly at my kitchen table. My goal is to keep everything like the old fashioned engineers designed it.."with all the original inconvenience, performance and experience". It's not all that bad.

Shelly Harris

11-09-2009, 07:31 PM

Quick update.... I got the carb installed and started the engine. Details will be forthcoming. I had little time to work out the adjusting but I'll get back to it on Weds. Here's the reason for this post..... I have extremely hard "cold" starting. The electric auto choke is working as it should, but I only get a good quick cold start when the fast idle screw (which adjusts against the choke cam) is at approrx. 1800 rpm. Seems much too fast for an idle during warm up, but anything less and the engine doesn't start. Any ideas? The mixture screws are set good and the low idle runs nice at 450 when in D and holding the brake. Accellerates great at all speeds.

Chuck Lutz

11-09-2009, 11:49 PM

Wow, not sure about that. 1800 rpm seems too high for cold idle Are you sure the electric choke is working and it's not just the jet setting? Is the elec choke wired to a "key-on" power source or a switch? (sorry for the silly question but it's worth checking).
I was looking for some info and found this. Not sure if it's relevant but it talks about Pertronix and electric choke wiring.
http://www.chip.com/buick/techtips/pertronix.html

CarMan

11-10-2009, 09:20 AM

Does your car have a so-called "fast idle cam" that brings the idle down in steps as the engine warms up? Your car may not work that way. But the idle screw would be adjusted when the cam is in its last (warmed up) position. Maybe you haven't let the car warm up enough when adjusting the idle screw, and now the idle speed is way off.

Shelly Harris

11-10-2009, 10:29 AM

Thank you Carman. Yes there is a fast idle cam, but there are only two positions or steps, a high and low. I'm sure the engine is warmed up prior to adjustments. I'll get another shot at it tomorrow. I really don't know the function of the "dashpot" but I have info on how to make sure it's set right. The auto electric choke is working just fine... it slowly heats up and then releases the butterfly. It's the fast idle screw stoped on the cam which keeps the motor at high idle which I have set at 1800 RPM (which the Carter Manual for a WCFB says is the proper adjustment). My Mark II manual which describes the adjusting of a Holley says the fast idle screw should just barely touch the cam... but that's a Holley. I'm wondering if the Carter manual is a misprint. Well, more fun tomorrow.

nico

11-10-2009, 09:09 PM

Shelly Harris

11-10-2009, 09:51 PM

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the procedure you're using but from my memory with carburetors you would be setting the fast idle to 1800 RPM with the engine hot. With other words you warm up the engine then while holding the choke plate open you open the throttle slightly so you can set the fast idle screw on the highest part of the cam and adjust the screw to the specified fast idle. Then just kick it of and check when cold.

Nico:

You are exactly correct. What concerns me is that after I have done that procedure, I'm able to successfully get a cold start but then it idles high (1800) for several minutes while the electric choke control heats up and eventually opens the butterfly. Giving the trottle a "blimp" doesn't disengage the high idle during this time. Running at that high idle for several minutes is disturbing. I plan on lowering the high idle tomorrow and see how low I can place it and still get cold starting.

Keith W Colonna

11-10-2009, 11:15 PM

Shelly,Group,
I repeat my mantra....don't alter from original unless you are an engineer, master mechanic, professional stylist or "mad scientist" (hello Rich).
Professionals made careers out of designing things like the advance and choke mech. which were all integrated carefully with other variables which may have since changed during modern times....like gasoline formulas. etc.
These details are subtle and complicated...hence the persistent problems after changes are made. Try to understand and repair the original...then operate the car as it was designed...it won't be a modern car...it will act differently.... Accept it. Tune up details for original equipment are in the Tech manual. The Dashpot sustains RPM duing sudden deceleration as in a slam stop and turn manuevers and prevents the engine from cutting out.. Photos and explanations are in the MKII Tech manual.

nico

11-11-2009, 01:42 AM

Did you make sure you're getting a full 12V and ground at the electric choke? Also the cover is usually indexed and can be adjusted to let the choke spring come off sooner. If the engine in fact will reach the same rpm before the choke kicks off as it has hot with the fast idle cam on I believe it needs to be adjusted. As the choke spring heats up it should go to the second step fairly soon after start up (throttle pedal kicked). Does it not have a stove pipe from the manifold to help out the electric choke? Keith I do agree things should be left as they are supposed to be however they did make things adjustable for a reason, no 2 engines are exactly the same.

Mad Scientist

11-11-2009, 04:17 PM

Typical adjustment procedure for electric choke.
Engine should be cold. Loosen locking screws so plastic cover can be turned. Work throttle to actuate choke. Turn plastic cover until choke plates will reliably close but no more.
This should give you a good starting point.

Increasing the "spring" pressure to close the choke plate will cause the choke to remain on for a longer time.

I would expect that there is a cold idle adjusting screw.

Shelly Harris

11-11-2009, 04:41 PM

All went to hell today. Thought all I had to do was some adjusting, but couldn't get the engine to start. All I'm getting is an occasional cough... like now I 'm fearing I have no ignition. Wondering if all the cranking somehow fried the pertronix??? I know this cranking isn't healthy for the starter. What's the easy way to check for spark? Pull a plug, ground it and and crank ? It's probably beyond me now and I'll have to get in a good mechaninc here or tow it in somewhere.

Chuck Lutz

11-11-2009, 05:14 PM

Try pulling the coil wire out or either the distr or the coil and prop it so it's close enough to the contact but far enough for you to see the arc across with someone cranking the ignition. You'll at least know there's spark.

Shelly Harris

11-11-2009, 06:08 PM

I have spark.... I just pulled a plug and cranked it. I noticed the gasket between the carb and intake manifold leaks when I pour gas down the carb throat, so I really tighted the carb down, but it still seeps gas out. I would think the engine would start regardless. I'll go get a another gasket this week end. Meanwhile its still not starting.

nico

11-11-2009, 08:24 PM

You mention the gas leaks between the carb and the manifold? make sure the bottom of the carb and the top of the manifold are flat if not you'll never get it to run right (Vacuum Leak). the gas could also leak along the throttle shaft and look like the base gasket, also would need to get fixed. If you've been cranking the car a lot the float bowl should be full off fuel, why would you need to dump fuel down the carb? If you open the choke manually and then operate the throttle and look down the carb do you see any fuel spraying from the accelerator circuits? If so check the plugs and see if they are wet with fuel. If so clean or heat with a lighter to dry out. There should be some kind of choke pull off which opens the chokeplate when cranking, if the choke plate does not open slightly while cranking the engine will flood right away and won't start. Try putting a screwdriver down the throat to keep the choke plate from staying closed all the way.

Shelly Harris

11-11-2009, 10:36 PM

Thank you so much for the suggestions....

I was so uncertain of everything, I decided to eliminate spark, fuel, etc. I see I have spark, so "to make sure" about fuel, I dumped some gas down the throat of the carb. Thinking back now that was kinda stupid, because Yes, I'm getting spray out of the accelerator circuits..and the reservoir must be full. On my last attempt to start there was no hint of any gas combustion. So the plugs might be soaked. THe rebuilder should have taken care of making sure the bottom of the carb being level, I hope so. I thought it all looked good when I cleaned down all the surfaces and installed the first time. Now I'll make damn sure.! Saturday I'll replace the gasket. Do you think I should use some gasket sealer? The choke plate remains fully closed while cranking... I 'll look for the pull off.

Roger Zimmermann

11-12-2009, 04:54 AM

.... but for the fact that the Carter WCFB was also installed on Corvettes from the mid-fifties up till 1964...
For your informatin, Cadillac had also the WCFB carb in 1956 (alternate with Rochester) on cars with 1 carb and, in 1956 and 1957, Cad had only the WCFB on cars with twin carbs. On my '56 de Ville, the carb is original, I rebuild it 20 or 25 years ago and it works as intended by the manufacturer plus it's offering a good fuel economy. About fuel economy: I cannot say the same with the twin carb set-up from my '56 Biarritz and '57 Brougham...

Shelly Harris

11-12-2009, 08:22 AM

Yes it was on various Cads, Buicks, Chrysler Imperials and even the last of the Packards, but the overwhelming current users are the Corvette people.

nico

11-12-2009, 10:07 AM

If the surfaces are true you shouldn't have to use anything, if you want to use something perhaps use a thin smear of silicone on both sides just make sure you let it cure before you start up otherwise it is more likely to push out.

Barry Wolk

11-12-2009, 10:36 AM

Actually, the sealant would be sucked into the intake manifold, not pushed out.

You shouldn't have to use any sealant. In fact, I wouldn't recommend it at all. Gaskets are compressible enough to do the job in all but the worst cases.

Shelly Harris

11-12-2009, 06:28 PM

What if this were the worst case?

Mad Scientist

11-12-2009, 06:44 PM

Place carb on manifold without the gasket. It should sit flat with little or no rocking.

If it does rock set carb on a flat table top, again it should sit flat with little or no rocking. If it does the body of the carb is warped.

If it doesn't then it is the manifold that is not flat. Then try using two gaskets instead of one and see if that will help seal it.

Barry Wolk

11-12-2009, 06:47 PM

I doubt it is. How careful were you to torque the bolts evenly? Were any if the threads sticky of cross-threaded?

The best gift I ever got was Craftsman's large SAE tap and die set. I have no idea how my wife knew to get me that, but it has saved my butt more than once.

Use the appropriate size die and clean the four studs. Be careful to stuff some rags in the throat of the manifold. Cut clean threads on all the studs. Vacuum out the chips and pull out the rags. Use new nuts and finger tighten them. This pretty much ensures that it's sitting flat. Tighten each nut one full turn in a cross pattern with a wrench. This will seat the carb into the gasket. Now use an inch-pound wrench to finish torquing the nuts, starting at the lowest setting, working your way up to specs.

If you don't have clean threads and new nuts you won't get a proper torque reading.

Also check to see if the studs are threaded all the way in. Some studs have spots with no threads. Make sure none of these spaces are too long, preventing the bolt from pushing down the flange of the carb.

Shelly Harris

11-12-2009, 08:12 PM

Good advice Barry. However, I pretty much did all that. The threads are fine - I finger tighten - then with a 7/16" open end wrench cross paterned turning in 1/2 turn each bolt, etc. I didn't torque as my old time torque wrench wouldn't fit in the spaces....but I'm pretty sure all bolts are even around. But its leaking so pull it off Sat and redue and make sure the plugs are dry.

nico

11-12-2009, 09:34 PM

His gasket is not sealing right now which to me means there is not equal pressure on the surfaces between the bolts or studs. If you let the silicone cure it will act as a filler and glue. Unless the gap is extreme this should work ok. If you keep thightening the bolts or nuts and possible add thicker or more gaskets, all you will do is warp the carburator more. Warped carburators belong in the trashcan because shafts bind, valves stick etc. By the way there are better products than silicone like Fuji 3 bond or any number of engine sealers used by Toyota, Subaru etc.

Keith W Colonna

11-13-2009, 11:52 PM

Shelly,
If you have spark and fuel without ignitiion....you must have a timing problem.
Or...you have flooded the #$%^ out of it with the gas.
Your DIY troubleshooting may be frustrating at this point. If you have AAA have them send over a mechanic. But you should also have an established relationship with a neighborhood mechanic to turn to in these situations.
Invest in him with some paid repairs and you will get some help during these situations in return.
Your carb should be perfect....call the rebuilder and ask his opinion also.

Shelly Harris

11-18-2009, 10:09 AM

For those following this thread here is a brief update......

As I live and work in the city during week days I only get to work on the car on weekends where it's located at another residence. I spent several hours last weekend with many re-installs of the carb. A big problem is that an original gasket is not obtainable... it is an obsolete part for the '57 Mark II w/ a carter WCFB and is no longer made by anyone. The gasket the rebuilder supplied is somewhat like it, but I believe it's really for a Corvette... it's not exact, but it should work. However I have no confidence that it isn't leaking in air. Also the rebuilt carb appears to have a leak off it's side by the reservoir which speaks bad for the rebuilder. Lastly, I cannot get the car to fire up at all.....and I suspect that the Ignitor I has failed. The project has gone beyond me and I don't have the hours available to do it, so I've arranged to have the car flat bedded to a good mechanic who will work on the car the first week after Thanksgiving. I know this shop is good as my son's (CarMan) GTO's have received good work there. My experience will be a great source of info for all you guys as I finally get all these issues resolved.

Barry Wolk

11-18-2009, 10:12 AM

Put Pertronix II in instead. It has a circuit that prevents burnout when the key is left on. Frankly, I don't know why you ordered Pertronix I to begin with. I don't really understand why they make that model anymore as it's plagued with problems.

luvolecars

11-26-2009, 04:58 PM

I just joined this forum about half hour ago and this carburetor situation is one thing I have been concerned with. Those old tea pot carbs caught on fire a lot, in fact the car I own has had a fire, I can tell by the bondo in the hood. I've been researching some sources for the fix. Most of them recommend an adapter and later model carbs. I'm not too excited about that option. It will change from originality but I will keep the Holley if someone wants to put it back on later. Through my research only GM and Chrysler used the WCFB. Glad to learn the 57's used them. Don't you feel they may be a bit more dependable? Safer? I've nothing good about the Holley's.

Chas

C56F3117

Nick DeSpirito

11-30-2009, 07:46 AM

Chas,

If you go to Pony carb's web site and look at the section on the Holley 4000, they rebuild them and correct the inherent defaults to "better than new".

Shelly,

The gasket I got for my Holley had 2 holes on each side right in line with the fuel passages on the underside. I got some gasket material and made my own.
If you saved the original, you can use it as a pattern.

Shelly Harris

12-01-2009, 05:01 PM

Update... my mechanic called to inform me that the car is running fine and the carb/electric choke adjusted nicely and running fine. He removed the Ignitor I and the Flame Thrower 40K coil which were the problem---- they had failed. My ignition is now back to original points/condenser and the original coil.

Mark_II_Mark

12-02-2009, 02:21 PM

I'll second Nick's suggestion about Pony carbs. I've had both the teapots from my MKII & '56 T-Bird rebuilt by Pony & they do re-eingineer & rebuild them to perform flawlessly. Costly but cheaper & "purer" than switching to an entire '57 setup (carb, manifold & distributor)...

depmike38

12-02-2009, 02:34 PM

I'll give Pony a third "attaboy". They were a bit pricey($608.00 for concours) but my carb was in bad shape and virtually non-functional. The car starts and seemingly runs well however I have some brake work to do before I can push it any. There was one minor glitch concerning a leaking upper gasket but all was easily handled by phone and everyone you talk to there, I dealt with John, is very helpful.

Chuck Lutz

12-02-2009, 07:22 PM

Shelly, Great news. I was wondering how that was going.

So will you stay with the points etc. or go for the ignitor 2?

Shelly Harris

12-02-2009, 10:23 PM

The mechanic told me the points looked new and that I have about 8000 miles to think about replacing them. Still, down the road, I'll probably go with the Ignitor II.

I picked up the car, my wife, and drove 60 miles round trip for dinner. Wonderful to be up and running again.

BTW there was nothing wrong with the carb I sent out for a rebuild. It's performing great. I can recommend the rebuilder. The Carter WCFB was rebuildt and modified with an electric choke.. $395 by:

Chuck Smith
29081 Fruitvale Ln
Valley Center, CA 92082
760-535-5191
760-749-5755

Don Henschel

01-27-2010, 06:56 PM

Shelly and for the other WCFB owners here is a very good source of information on these carbs.
http://www.carburetor.ca/carbs/tech/Carter/wcfb-service.pdf

Shelly Harris

03-03-2010, 09:42 PM

I can now post some pictures of the completed install of the Carter WCFB which I sent out for a bebuild many months ago. Those with sharp eyes will see that I await the return of the A/C idle riser. My car is a '56 with the '57 changes, i.e. cartridge air filter, Carter Carb and '57 distributor change.
http://markiiforum.com/pictures/94.JPG

http://markiiforum.com/pictures/95.JPG

Chuck Lutz

03-04-2010, 12:19 AM

Looking good Shelly!. Spring is right around the corner. Bet you can't wait to get it out on road. Next year it goes to the Springs for the month, Right? :)

Shelly Harris

03-04-2010, 08:33 AM

Looking good Shelly!. Spring is right around the corner. Bet you can't wait to get it out on road. Next year it goes to the Springs for the month, Right? :)

That's a "maybe".

Shelly Harris

03-04-2010, 06:47 PM

Both work but I can't tell you exactly till Sat.

awags

04-18-2011, 10:01 AM

I just rebuilt my Carter WCFB. When I got the car it ran fine but gas poured out of side of carburetor. So figuring a seal or gasket I rebuilt the carb, pretty straight forward.
Started the car for first time, ran about 20 secs and died. Then it would start, run about 2 secs and die. So I'm thinking starving for fuel, floats stuck, plugged jet or something obviously I did.
Well long story short and a day of pulling my hair out, rechecking carb over and over, it was a bad electrical connection on the resistor by the coil. Cleaned that up and runs perfect. Comparable to Shellys initial post! Tough part was I had spark to start it but none to keep it running. Finally had my girlfriend starting it, I was by the coil and I could feel the clicking of the solenoid, which led me to the problem.

Shelly Harris

04-18-2011, 10:40 AM

Yes, well over a year ago that I got the Carter project finished. It has been working beautifully ever since.

On reflection I can sum up that the carb once rebuilt and installed worked as it should. I ran into trouble because at the same time the Ignitor 1 and the Ignitor coil coil totally failed. Had that not happened this carb rebuild project would have gone smoothly.

I continued to ride with the stock ignition set up -- points, plugs, condenser and resistor for several months but then experienced a sudden failure after going through a car wash. I worked with the standard ignition for a few days but could never get it running right. My mechanic then installed an MDS unit with coil and the engine has run smoother and better than it probably ever did going back to it's creation.

I cannot overly praise the MDS unit. If you want your car to be more reliable and run it's best then you can't beat the MDS. The idle is so smooth. It's running just like a modern day engine (2011) as if it were fuel injected, electronic ignition, computers, etc. MDS can even be installed in a hidden manner for the purists who want to have an original look under the engine hood. The Carter w/ an electric choke continues to perform great.