How many still exist? [Archive] - Mark II Forum - A Forum for Continental Mark II

Chuck Lutz

09-04-2009, 11:29 PM

I would hope that the ones we've looked at in the hot rod genre were found in junk yards or barn yards in irrepairable condition as it relates to the cars we hold so dear in this group. Ok.. I'm not going to get emotional here.
All joking aside, as a percentage 1/2 of the pack still around after 50+ yrs? I realize that that would include the rest of the barn yards too but that's, by comparison to other cars of the era must be a huge percentage.

Barry Wolk

09-05-2009, 06:32 AM

I believe that just about every Duesenberg still exists as do the majority of Cord and Auburns. Why not Mark IIs? The were instant icons and many were saved from the crusher.

Ron Howard

09-08-2009, 05:46 AM

One of the questions I often receive concerning the Mk II is "How many still exist?" The answer 50% seems to high to most people. I would assume that the majority of the cars that exist today have at one time in their lives been listed in a club directory or registry. I have a copy of the 1986 Directory for the Lincoln Continental Owner's Club which lists 515 Mk IIs with serial numbers and owner's names. Has anyone ever put together a database of known cars with their serial numbers through the years?

Ron

Shelly Harris

09-08-2009, 07:34 AM

From the current Directory I obtained approx. 125 MKIIs with an email address. There were at least twice that many without one. SO I'm GUESSING that the current Directory is about 400. Ron's thinking that survivng cars are most likely registered seems sound to me. I think Barry's feeling that there are at least 1500 is way too high. That would mean that half produced have survived. Sorry, I can't agree on that based on what I see. When I go to old car shows, it's very, very rare to see one. I visit the big Palm Springs car Auction each year in late February and have yet to see one there. I visit private collections and public auto museums and never see one. I actively looked to buy one for two years and finally found one! So in guessing how many survive I would take the number in the LCOC Directory and add another 20% to adjust for unlisted ones. This brings you in the neighborhood of 500. I would refine that number by going back to the directory and actually counting the number of MKIIs listed, which I just don't have time to do right now.

Barry Wolk

09-08-2009, 08:08 AM

You're entitled to your opinion Shelly, but I've been involved with Mark IIs a lot longer than you have. You have no basis in fact, just speculation. I've probably seen 500 in person in the last 8 years.

Believe me, they're not all that scarce. Try going to a Concours, you can't swing a cat without hitting one. Ever been to an LCOC event?

My assessment is anecdotal and yours is mere speculation, your Honor.

Just look at the number of Mark IIs registered here that don't belong to the LCOC and you'll see that your logic is not logical.

Nick DeSpirito

09-08-2009, 09:34 AM

We have 9 Mark II's registered for the LCOC ENM in Lancaster. Of course, they are all club members. I took mine out for a 230 mile almost non stop run yesterday in preparation for the journey to Lancaster tomorrow morning. I had to go up to Brad's to help put the the window cards and a few other papers in the meet packs. He lives about 90 miles north of me in NY. Everything's done and we're ready to roll in the morning. It ran superbly all through the day. I made 2 or 3 stops on the way (I had to stop by my cousin's which was about a 50 mile sidetrip to pick up some flowers and ribbon for her daughter's wedding cake which is next week) and I just had to tap the key (the starter hardly cranked) to start it. I left in the morning and pulled in my driveway 10:22 last night. On the highway, I cruised around 70, hitting 80 a few times getting thumbs up, honks, and people taking pictures while riding next to me on the highway. I tuned a corner on a country back road and there were kids playing ball in a field and I heard one say "WOW". I even had a guy come over while I was getting gas telling me he has a '70 Mark III and hadn't seen a Mark II in a long time and took a picture with his phone. All in all, it was a great run that was badly needed by not only the car, but me too.

When doing a head count of surviving Mark II's you have to remember that not all are registered with LCOC and I think the estimate of 20 percent that are not is too low. I don't know if 1,500 is correct, (they've been quoting that figure for years) but 500 is way too low IMO. Remember that they've survived on varying states of condition also and those cars which are not in a roadworthy state probably aren't even registered with DMV, let alone a car club, but they are still survivors.

Barry Wolk

09-08-2009, 10:15 AM

This was just posted on the Lincoln Forum.

I was lining up for a parade and car show over the weekend and thought I was seeing double.

Nothing like thinking you brought the prettiest girl to the dance only to find she has a twin sister.

http://www.thelincolnforum.net/phpbb3/download.php?id=4424

Ron Howard

09-08-2009, 11:41 AM

The LCOC has been in existence since 1953 and I'm sure has issued a directory of owners and cars for many years. Does anyone keep a database of cars past and present (registered and unregistered)? My guess is that many of the cars that exist today may have been at one time listed in a LCOC directory or with another car club.

Ron

Barry Wolk

09-08-2009, 11:46 AM

Yes, one of the Usual Suspect's has the LCOC list but has refused my overtures to use it as a basis for furthering the cause.

Shelly Harris

09-08-2009, 02:17 PM

FWIW I spoke with Jack Rosen this morning as I was sending him my vacuum advance control for the a/c idle increase to be refurbed. I asked him how many out there surviving and he replied 1800.

Chuck Lutz

09-08-2009, 03:00 PM

I joined LCOC the day I found this forum and joined both that day. Oddly enough, today I received paperwork and the directory for 2009. I was amazed at the number of 56 MKII's in there - 56 - 303 and 57 - 79. The 56 count would be about 12% of all produced and the 57 total would be almost 18% of the 444 produced. My neighbor and I account for 3 additional cars not on that list either.
I'm guessing not everyone here is a member and therefore not listed either.
I'd venture a guess that the 1500 figure might be a bit on the high side based on the percentages above. Of course, if you had a heap or two sitting in your barn or out in the "south 40" I don't imagine you'd worry about listing it in the LCOC registery or paying the 42 clams to join.

Nick DeSpirito

09-08-2009, 03:10 PM

FWIW I spoke with Jack Rosen this morning as I was sending him my vacuum advance control for the a/c idle increase to be refurbed. I asked him how many out there surviving and he replied 1800.

Shelly,

Did you invite him to join the Forum?

Chuck Lutz

09-08-2009, 03:18 PM

Yes, one of the Usual Suspect's has the LCOC list but has refused my overtures to use it as a basis for furthering the cause.

Barry, I could scan the list from the LCOC directory. Or could I get sent up the river for that?

vancec

09-08-2009, 04:52 PM

I think the answer is that we'll never know. I doubt we'll ever be even close.

I owned two Zephyrs and never registered them with the LZOC. I also never registered my two LCCs with the LCOC. So the margin for error, going by registries, must be enormous, wouldn't you think? Going by a database, like Jack Rosen's, you are going to get all the LCOC registered cars plus however many customers he has had. Who knows what percentage that would represent? How many are in garages being polished or under sheds rusting away? Unless I'm missing something here.

I have been looking daily on Ebay for 5 years and there has always been at least one, usually more like three, on there every day.

Ron Howard

09-08-2009, 06:51 PM

Looks like my assumptions are wrong. If there are 1500 - 1800 Mk IIs around then the LCOC has never attracted more than 25% of the MK II owners. The other 75% must be a pretty independent bunch. Actually, the most useful exchange of information for Mk IIs is probably found here on the forum.

Ron

Shelly Harris

09-08-2009, 07:39 PM

Actually, the most useful exchange of information for Mk IIs is probably found here on the forum.

Ron

You bet! Thanks to great members who supply fast knowlegable information.

Barry Wolk

09-08-2009, 08:30 PM

I'm not casting any stones but the LCOC, until now, has been a good-old-boys network that hasn't been very friendly to new members. Membership is way down because people felt ignored. I know I did.

That's not totally fair. The truth is that membership is dying off. Young people aren't all that interested in old-man cars. We collect cars of our youth. Look at what they've got to look forward to.:rolleyes:

Truth be told, if it were not for the great people in the Region, I'd not be a member of the national LCOC.

I had dinner tonight with Phil Skinner, editor of Kelly's antique car guide. He has an enormous databank of Mark II information that I'm hoping he'll share with us. He's a serial number freak. The man deciphered my interior numbers from memory. He takes picture of data plates on every car he encounters. Loves Edsels but has a soft spot in his heart for Mark IIs. In his less than humble opinion, they're everywhere.

The third member of our Boys Night Out was my friend Shawn, a Ford propeller-head in charge of global tracking of all Ford serial numbers. I learned tonight that there are about 20 places on a car where the serial number is hidden. I think I've created a monster, putting those two together.

Chuck Lutz

09-08-2009, 11:14 PM

Barry, thanks for sharing. You've mentioned Phil before. What a great conversation that must have been. That's what I call an amazing "boy's night out" What great sources of the history.
I have to tell you that had I found this forum prior to the LCOC it would have been a no brainer. Hindsight is 20-20. Again, not casting stones on LCOC, it just seems big and bulky with the depth it covers. I only only want to know, study and talk Mark II's. I was looking at their spot again today and I'm very happy that there's a link on the website to here.
I'm astounded that this forum is only 3 months (?) old. I'm glad Shelly was inspired to put it together. Great people, great info, and I love the banter and the ideas that flow.

vancec

09-08-2009, 11:54 PM

Nick DeSpirito

09-09-2009, 05:09 AM

Ditto, Shelly. Thanks for giving us a home.

SLK

09-09-2009, 05:44 AM

I agree. I thought Jack Rosen started a Mark II registry. I doubt he would share his data as it is his client list. But you never know.

depmike38

09-09-2009, 10:13 AM

Yep, I had a car and a set of books but no one I could get any help with on this car. Even though the LCOC has it's purpose it's just nice to have a place that focuses on this car. Hooray Shelly

Will Hawk

09-29-2009, 04:53 AM

I am new here, but I will chime in. The number of 1,500 to 1,800 should be very close. I base my opinion on my experience with that other high dollar 50's car the Eldorado Brougham. On the Cadillac data base there is a section dedicated to the Brougham. On this site they are tracking all known survivors. The last time I cheeked the survival rate of 57, 58 broughams it was at about 60%, and more are coming out of the wood work all the time. Due to the close relationship of these two great cars (limited production high dollar cars), it would seem that the percentage of survivors would be close to the same.

Barry Wolk

09-29-2009, 04:58 AM

Hi Will, welcome to the site.

I believe that these cars were recognized as icons right from the beginning.

I'll say it again. Anyone ever see one in a junkyard?

Doc

09-29-2009, 09:45 AM

Not exactly the junk yard, but I did have the privilege of wandering through Rosen's boneyard while it was still in Riverside. That was the most Mark IIs I've ever seen in one place at the same time (including LCOC shows). I assume that most of those parts cars are now in his new facility in the high desert.

5bird7

12-05-2009, 09:47 PM

Personnally know another owner not a member of LCOC though his car could have belonged to a previous member at some time in it's past. Then there is that extra frame we have, with it's MarkII body probably residing on some other type of frame as a custom.

Since my main interest is in the classic Thunderbird which you all know is a desireable car, there has been an effort over the last 15 or 20 years to keep track of the supercharged 'birds that still exist. I think the database for those comes to over 50% of the 212 built. That's a high number compared to a normal car. I would think that with the low production of the MarkII that Rosen is quite close in his estimate of those that still exist. As some have pointed out, how often do (did) you ever find one in a wrecking yard. My spouse has browsed wrecking yards in WA state from the 60s into the 90s and never spotted one and he hasn't spotted one here in TX in almost 20 years.

TulsaMarkII

12-09-2009, 01:54 PM

I would say at least that many. Ever see one in a junkyard?

Not personally. Found this photo online though. Are these Rosen's parts cars perhaps?

The entire thread is full of off-the-wall Mark IIs.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=216078&showall=1

Jason

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5778/img4832hi1.jpg

Doc

12-09-2009, 03:17 PM

No, that's not Rosen's old site in Riverside (and I believe his current inventory at the new site is indoors). Based on what look like palo verde trees in the background, I'd guess that's something related to the old facility in Nogales where they were restoring the Mark IIs in the 1970s (?).

Mark_II_Mark

12-09-2009, 03:59 PM

That would have been Axel Holm's operation "Desert Classics". From the age of the modern day vehicles in the picture, it was taken fairly recently & "Desert Classics" has been out of business for many decades. I guess iy could be at Axel's residence, if he's still living in AZ...

Keith W Colonna

12-09-2009, 10:03 PM

so where among all these junk MKII's can I find a driver's side floor pan???
Suggestions please!!!

Chuck Lutz

12-10-2009, 09:42 AM

Good detective work Doc. Would that have been Axel Holm's place? Wasn't he in Norgales?

Chuck Lutz

12-10-2009, 09:43 AM

oops.. I need to post quicker. LOL

george smith

12-12-2009, 11:53 AM

Hello
According to the Automotive Information Clearinghouse, there are 207 of the 57 Marks still registered with the DMV in all of the 50 states, they also tell you how many are in your state and back in 1991 they said 86, 57 Lincoln Premieres, and 3 in my state of New Jersey and they were right about that, they at least put it writing
George Smith
C56S3835

As a side note does anyone have a Mark Ii Encyclopedia for sale
1961@comcast.net or 1-856-727-1150

Barry Wolk

12-12-2009, 12:10 PM

How many of the '56s? That's a very high percentage of '57s since there were only 444 made. Of course, that's only registered cars, not a true reflection of cars extant. I know of a number of Mark IIs without current registration because they're part of collections and not driven.

Up until recently my limo and Mark III convertible hadn't been registered in years.

How many of you have cars that aren't registered?

Mad Scientist

12-12-2009, 12:44 PM

I was about to make the same point.
Until this summer mine was hidden away in a garage quietly aging unregistered for the last forty years.

How many more could there be like that.:confused::confused:

Shawn Newcomb

12-12-2009, 03:51 PM

In the jalopyjournal link posted on page 3 by TulsaMarkII the "boneyard pic" is referred to as 'around the corner' by Tikisomeoneorother from Chandler, AZ

Also, 207 of 444 while a very small sample, is still almost 1/2 which probably lends credence to the belief that the vast majority of these cars still exist in some form and relatively few are gone forever.

linc64

12-12-2009, 07:34 PM

I find it interesting that in the 2009 LCOC Directory there are only about 299 '56s registered and about 79 '57s. According to an article in a 1980 issue of Continental comments, there were 1,600 Mark IIs registered. I remember hearing that there was a lot of resistance from club members to allow Mark IIIs and other Lincolns into the club during the seventies. What are your thoughts on why Mark II membership declined? Certainly most of the cars from 1980 are still around.

Mark_II_Mark

12-13-2009, 07:46 AM

In 30 years, attitudes about having to be a member of a club of any type have changed, the internet has made physical membership and the contacts and information provided by club membership unnecessary and there will ALWAYS be the SNOB factor that turns folks off, on both sides of the coin.

Each member/owner thinks that his vehicle model alone is the best, whether a Mark II, III, IV, V ad nauseam. Plus, the Mark II vehicle/owner has been viewed as being
"Elitist" because of the rarity & cost of the car, Mark II "owner attitude", etc.

Finally, the cost of membership vs. what LCOC provides for the $$$ is also a deciding factor...

5bird7

12-13-2009, 11:32 AM

Mark and Jim, you have made a couple of good points about why the fall in numbers.

Dilution of club focus thru adding in other years and the internet. The internet only comes into play though in the last 10 years or so.

I'm involved with both the retrobird and the classic Thunderbird. Numbers in membership have fallen with the classic Thunderbird club over the years but not at a real dramatic rate. The height of membership was in the mid 80s to early 90s at over 9000; it's fallen slowly since then to around 6000 yet there's an estimate that at least 20,000 and up to 35,000 classics still remain.
The retrobird was born in the internet age. There is no organized club specifically for it but there is an active internet group for it. That appears to be working for them. A club may eventually get formed specifically for them.

Chuck Lutz

12-13-2009, 11:44 AM

FWIW, I've sent my $30 in for joining the Western Region of the LCOC. Mainly because one of the officers / leaders of the group has a Mark II and I think there's probably more members with Mark II's. I know there's a few members here from So. Calif. and based on the 15 or so Mark II's listed in the LCOC directory in No & So California, I was hoping to see better Mark II representation of Mark II's in the Western Region.
Seems like most of their focus (as I've seen so far) is within So. Calif. but I can't see any reason the region wouldn't spread some events to Nor Calif if there were better participation.
I live in a small city on the SF Peninsula south of the SFO airport. There are 4 Mark II's in this little town. There were 2 listed in SF and a few more listed in Marin County across the GG Bridge. Perhaps we could get a Calif. Mark II rally going in the spring to meet somewhere geographically between north and south for a weekend of fun and story swapping with anyone who wanted to attend.

Barry Wolk

12-13-2009, 12:08 PM

Part of the decline in LCOC membership was due to a perception of a "good-old-boys" leadership that proved unfriendly to a bunch of new members.

The new leadership, IMO, is more proactive in its approach to widening club interest. However, that approach remains to be seen if it works.

Doc

12-13-2009, 08:15 PM

Chuck, I like your idea of a California Mark II rally. Like many others on the forum, I'm not so much into 100-points judged events, but enjoy meeting other Mark II owners and sharing stories/seeing what others have done with their cars/talking about parts sources, etc. Perhaps this forum might be the catalyst to get together a critical mass of California Mark II owners to pull off some sort of function. It sounds like a great idea...let's see if others respond.

My two cents: I think the apparently marginal interest in membership in LCOC is as much a function of a general decline in memberships in all sorts of voluntary associations as it is any particular failure of the LCOC with respect to Mark IIs. Membership in virtually all clubs and organizations in the US is on decline. I also think the ever increasing number of "show and shine" type events makes it easier and easier to find a place to show our cars and meet others with our interests without joining/paying a formal car organization.

Chuck Lutz

12-13-2009, 11:07 PM

Doc, those 2 cents are priceless. :) Let's do it.

Shelly Harris

12-14-2009, 07:08 AM

Why wait for Spring. Isn't California beautifull year round. You West coast guys should pick a week-end and meet at the same big hotel/motel on the coast mid-way LA/SF. Everyone plan on staying over Sat night. Keep it simple. Your group won't be large (I count 12 California people on our Member List), and informally you can get together for dinner, bfast, looking at eack others car etc. Go for it.

Doc

12-14-2009, 01:19 PM

That's why some of us never adjust our original carbs, haven't updated our ignition systems, and still fire up the Mark IIs to great black clouds of unburned premium gas. Figure I'm just about even with the Governor's carbon footprint from his Hummers and cigars...

Huffstutler

12-24-2009, 09:53 AM

Not personally. Found this photo online though. Are these Rosen's parts cars perhaps?

The entire thread is full of off-the-wall Mark IIs.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=216078&showall=1

Jason

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/5778/img4832hi1.jpg

As one has pointed out, there are newer vehicles off to the right so not that old of a picture which means another 10 or so currently not registered in this boneyard?