How does your Mark II drive?

[MKII]

Hi:

This may be a strange question, but I would like to hear from you how your car drives.

I can tell you mine is the most silent and smoothest old car I have ridden in, with a very impressive and solid feel. That feel may very well be in part because of it's weight, but here is why I am asking, as the car also feels slow compared to other 'competition' cars from the era.

I own a 1956 Packard Four Hundred (with the dual carb option of the Caribbean) and also a 1958 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (with the three small carbs, though in my case currently only the center one is working). Both cars would have been the Mark II's competition and have somewhat similar horsepower ratings, but in my case both of them feel lighter and faster than the Mark II.

Don't missunderstand me, the Mark II feels much better, but also slower. I checked on timing, installed new points, air filter and sparkplugs, but the car still seems a little slugish. Of course, I can gladly live with it as it is, but before attemting to look any further, I want to ask if by my description, the car's movement sounds adequate or if I have to suspect of some slight problem?

So, how does your car drive? Is it fast and agile or does it have a heavy feel about it?

Thanks,
Victor

[Barry Wolk]

I have a 20,000 mile '77 Town Car. The Mark II is much faster and more agile. It just doesn't stop as well.

Check the timing and the vacuum advance. Without vacuum advance the car will be very slow.

[CarMan]

If I was going for performance in '56-'57, I'd probably pick one of the Hemis over the Mark2. The 57 Chrysler 300C, for example had a 392 ci Hemi at 390 hp. 56 Desotos had dual quads for the Hemis. The 57 Fireflite ran at 345 hp. All the 56 Imperials ran with the Chrysler firepower Hemi.

[Barry Wolk]

I don't know that power was a real consideration for their target market. The horsepower was marketed without numbers, only that it was "adequate". I believe Rolls-Royce used that tag line, too.

The Pertronix ignition with the hot coil sure made a difference in the "get up and go!" department.

Now, I wouldn't mind a set-up like William Clay Ford's hotrod Mark II. It had the complete 460 drive train from a '69 Mark III.

[MKII]

Barry:

Being your Mark II faster than your Town car surely says they were not slow cars at all!

I am hoping the advice on vaccum advance at the distributor will be the cause of my 'slow' car (but again, it is not real bad). I will look into it hopefully this same week.

Thanks,
Victor

[Barry Wolk]

The 460 in my '77 is only 180 hp compared to 285 in the Mark II.

I'll state again that it was a lot peppier after the Pertronix tune-up. Also be aware that the timing mark on the vibration damper may not be accurate, making your timing off. The only way to tell is to use a TDC tool and mark a new TDC if yours is off. Mine was. The outer shell can turn on the rubber isolator.

The TDC tool is basically the bottom part of a spark plug with a threaded center. The threaded probe will screw in far enough to make an obstruction for the piston. Hand turning the crank will allow you to find an exact TDC and work from there.

If anyone would like to use mine, simply pay it forward to the next person that wants to use it.

This is kind of what it looks like.

http://www.northerneagle.ca/images/Tool%20TDC%20P102.jpg

[MKII]

Thanks Barry.

I would have never though of the TDC mark not accurate, so I will check on that. I won't ask you for the tool, as I live in Mexico and would not like to risk your tool in the mail, but thanks for the offer.

I have tried the Pertronix unit in my 1964 Riviera. It really did a lot for it. I wasn't considering for the Mark II as I kind of liked the small coil with yellow top it has and want to keep it as original as possible (Somebody told me this coil is correct for the car), but after checking for correct timing and for vaccuum advance, I will probably get a Pertronix and new cables and see if it improves.

Victor

[Ian Cowie]

I have found TDC on a few motors by simply pulling #1 plug and inserting a screwdriver. Slowly crank the engine over with a socket/bar on the crankshaft and watch the screwdriver rise and fall. Back and forth and you can set the crank on TDC quite easily. Course Barry's tool makes the job "higher tech"!

I drove my car this morning after resetting the ignition timing and carb screws. My mechanic friend used simply the vacuum gauge and we first set the timing as best we could (the distributor vacuum advance is now rubbing against the fuel line so we couldn't rotate any further ... but the timing was really screwed up before). We then adjusted the carb screws (the pair at the bottom front). Vacuum went from 15 to 19 and the car no longer backfires under heavy acceleration! Stills stumbles badly from a dead stop. I have to tickle the throttle a bit to get it moving without stalling.
Anyway, headed for the highway for my hour drive and was able to travel about 15-20 KPH above the posted speed limit of 80 and 100 (4-lane). Car ran great about 68-70 MPH and when I punched it down to pass it just launched itself and I hit 80 MPH (130 KPH) and it was still pulling great!
What a kick!!!

Ian

[Barry Wolk]

The stumbling on acceleration is the power piston. They are leather cups that shrink over time. They can be ordered separately,but you might as well rebuild the carb when it open. By depressing the pedal this piston gives the carb a large shot of fuel to get you going, then backs out of the fuel circuit.

The distributor shouldn't hit anything. It may have been installed one tooth off.

I would find TDC using a proper tool, not the damper mark, and see where the rotor points. Being one tooth out limits the range that the distributor can swing.

[Don Henschel]

What are you guys able to use for fuel. I believe these engines were meant to use 96-98 octane. I have to use premium 91-92 and doesnt seem to be nearly enough. I got my timing turned back with octane boost and premium.

[Barry Wolk]

I had to use premium before the Pertronix. Now I use regular.

[Chuck Lutz]

Great question. Is there any need to use a lead substitute?

[Barry Wolk]

No, not at all. The lead was a lubricant that raised octane. They have substituted other chemicals that do the same job.

[Shelly Harris]

No, not at all. The lead was a lubricant that raised octane. They have substituted other chemicals that do the same job.

I disagree. Modern engines do not need lead because they have "hardened" valve stems and valve seats. Use of gasoline w/o lead will in due course of time eat away the valve seats and valve stems in our engines.

[Barry Wolk]

I, and may others disagree. There is no need for hardened seats anymore. Maybe for racing bikes, but not for passenger cars.

[Don Henschel]

Well put Shelly! From what I read about it, it was nothing more than a cheap octane booster. Remember the good ol lead days. I remember recomended tune ups of 10-12,000 miles. I used to remove and regap my plugs. By the time 20k came around the top ground electrode was getting very thin. My 50 Merc. probably ran on unleaded from new?? Didnt premium or "Ethel" (Tetra-ethyl leads) come in around 1953-4+ when the comression ratios were going up? I have done many engine rebuilds as this is my present occupation for 29 years and remember pulling heads apart with massive wear and damage on the guides, where excessive lead deposits chewed the guides out. This was common to see on the Briggs and Scrap-irons which used alluminum valve guides, and I would ream them out and install a bronze guide. My 50 Merc had 40'000 miles on the plugs and I felt guilty and pulled them out, even though it started and ran very well (still running 6V with generator). The plugs looked very good, and could have been regapped but I tossed and replaced.

[Don Henschel]

Sorry Barry, but the seats always were and always will be hardened. You may look at a cylinder head and see cast iron integral seats with no inserts, but when new, the cast iron seats were hardened through a heat(induction) or flame treating process kind of like what they do to camshaft lobes. At the time of valve reconditioning where you have to grind the seat, minor touchups can be done, but if too much is required, this hardening is getting thin (even though the valve to seat contact is still good) and inserts are recomended. A re-ring job you would probably get away with it with good results, but an extensive rebuild, you will be doing the heads later on. This would certainly be the case in an industrial engine working hard all the time.

[Don Henschel]

I had to use premium before the Pertronix. Now I use regular. No pinging at all? Where is your timing set now? That sounds great because Premium isnt sold in Buttcrack Saskatchewan where I live. I have to look around for it and pay $1.10-1.20 per liter (3.78 liters per U.S. gallon). Also it's only 91-92 octane, not 96-98 octane like the "red" gas used to be. Whats involved to convert, and does this use a "knock' sensor. I have been in the trade for a long time but most of the time I have only kept stock on my old toys which have been the majority of my transportation and havnt up dated them (only use modern for commuting to work) I only put an 8 volt battery in my Merc. but will probably put it back to 6 because a 6-12v maintainer is easier to get and I might put a tar top in it latter on.

[Barry Wolk]

Sorry Barry, but the seats always were and always will be hardened. You may look at a cylinder head and see cast iron integral seats with no inserts, but when new, the cast iron seats were hardened through a heat(induction) or flame treating process kind of like what they do to camshaft lobes. At the time of valve reconditioning where you have to grind the seat, minor touchups can be done, but if too much is required, this hardening is getting thin (even though the valve to seat contact is still good) and inserts are recomended. A re-ring job you would probably get away with it with good results, but an extensive rebuild, you will be doing the heads later on. This would certainly be the case in an industrial engine working hard all the time.

What I thought I was saying is that there is no longer a need to install NEW hardened seats as a preventative as modern fuels do not require it. Would you agree with that?

[Barry Wolk]

No pinging at all? Where is your timing set now? That sounds great because Premium isnt sold in Buttcrack Saskatchewan where I live. I have to look around for it and pay $1.10-1.20 per liter (3.78 liters per U.S. gallon). Also it's only 91-92 octane, not 96-98 octane like the "red" gas used to be. Whats involved to convert, and does this use a "knock' sensor. I have been in the trade for a long time but most of the time I have only kept stock on my old toys which have been the majority of my transportation and havnt up dated them (only use modern for commuting to work) I only put an 8 volt battery in my Merc. but will probably put it back to 6 because a 6-12v maintainer is easier to get and I might put a tar top in it latter on.

It does some rattling when I jamb my foot to the floor, but jetting away from a light is no problem.

The Pertronix tune-up is documented in Shelly's thread and elsewhere. Shelly has listed the correct components in his thread.

Using the Pertronix instead of points eliminates all of the problems associated with points and give you sweet smelling exhaust.

The Pertronix requires two wires instead of one, but they fit through the hole in the distributor with no problem. Use their "hot" coil and "hot" plug wires for better spark. Use dual platinum spark plugs to take the hotter spark, and open the plug gap to .045 instead of .035. That will make a larger, hotter, spark allowing for better combustion at idle.

My car used to stink to high heaven when I started it. It also produced black carbon deposits like crazy. Now all it produces is a ton of condensate, but very little odor.

[Don Henschel]

What I thought I was saying is that there is no longer a need to install NEW hardened seats as a preventative as modern fuels do not require it. Would you agree with that? Yes I would strongly agree! If it aint broke don't fix it. If you are doing a tear down of your engine for lets say mabe a set of new gaskets, a fresh set of rings and bearings, and mabe a light resurface of your valves and seats if they even need it, I wouldnt cut the seats out and put in inserts. If there is very little wear on the valves, it takes very little grinding to touch them up like new. If you have a burnt valve and the engine was driven for a long time, the seat will get eroded and would require alot more grinding and in alot of cases the seat would require an insert because of improper valve to seat contact (the seat diameter enlarges as it is ground)

[Rex]

I have owned my Mark II for only a few weeks now, but I have been very impressed by it's power and smooth quiet ride. Maybe your tranny is a bit weak or linkage is not properly adjusted or your accelerator linkage may not be set right. That can have a big effect on sluggish takeoff. In general, I think most Ford products of this period are hampered somewhat by their transmission, compared to the GM or Chyrsler transmissions. I've owned a '58 and '59 Lincoln, and that tranny seems more quick to me than the one in my Mark; however, I am very impressed that this car reaches 60 effortlessly and you don't have any sensation you're going so fast. You don't get that feeling in most other cars from 1956 that I've ever driven.

[Barry Wolk]

I have a 1988 BMW 750iL that's a V-12 and 295 hp at 4200#.

My Mark II weighs 5,300# and has 285 hp but feels almost as fast.

These things take off rather well considering their heft.