Tempest in a Teapot or Welcome Back Carter?

[crystal59]

As an update, I have a Carter.. Gary

[Barry Wolk]

A carb rebuild would have done the same thing. Does your air cleaner line up with the air horn?

[Don Henschel]

I quite agree! Replacing a tired carburator with a fresh rebuild is a very poor unfair comparison. You could have a tired Carter and replace it with a fresh properly rebuilt "teapot' and have instant good results. Again bad advice Gary.........not to offend you. And if your teapot had a kit installed, was it installed correctly and with TLC?

[Don Henschel]

But you could do like Mad and install fuel injection and it would run even better. The Carter is probably better, but
A: My Mark is not a commuter or a daily driver but it runs very very well IMO.
B: This is what this make, model and year of car came with and I make the best of it as to keep it as close to what the authenticity manual shows, while doing my best to keep it running at peak performance and reliability with what I have to work with...OEM installed components.
C: May I remind you, my other used to be regular driver is a 50 Merc. sport sedan with 6 volts (yes a generator as well), a Holley 2 barrel, with a 3 speed standard with factory over drive. This car has top end of 85-90 mph on a good day with 110 hp under the hood. It has bios ply tires, the tube radio, AM only and I drove it as is since 1985. It's somewhat unpleasant compared to much newer cars, but oh well, it is what it is ( I guess I put up with alot:))and I plan on getting something older from the 40's or 30's. Right now I'm looking at those 40's V12 Lincoln Continentals on E-Bay and drooling. They too are like the Mark II, beautiful, rare, but at a disapointing low price for what they are.
Sorry for perpetuating the derailment of this post:(

[Shelly Harris]

For purposes of authenticity are points deducted if the car is a '56 yet upgraded with a Carter and dist as in the '57s?

[Rick Payton]

If you have a late 56 how would they know if it was not correct?

[Shelly Harris]

If you have a late 56 how would they know if it was not correct?

True, but if they knew, for purposes of authenticity and having the car in a points judged show I've been told (and this involved points judging of GTOs) that as long as the car was available with the item it made no difference if your car had been changed to that item, color etc.

If that's true then given the opportunity to change out a Holley with a Carter and upgrading the distributor to a '57 is a no brainer and the argument of wanting to keep the car authentic goes out the window.

[Barry Wolk]

For you. Many here will disagree. There's nothing wrong with the T-pot and original distributor. There are still thousands of them out there and running fine. Rebuilds usually resolve all problems.

If you want to justify the change in your mind, that's fine. There's no factual reason to make the change.

[Nick DeSpirito]

True, but if they knew, for purposes of authenticity and having the car in a points judged show I've been told (and this involved points judging of GTOs) that as long as the car was available with the item it made no difference if your car had been changed to that item, color etc.

If that's true then given the opportunity to change out a Holley with a Carter and upgrading the distributor to a '57 is a no brainer and the argument of wanting to keep the car authentic goes out the window.

Also, I think you'll need to get a '57 air cleaner if you do that because I don't think the '56 oil bath will fit on the Carter.

[Barry Wolk]

It also won't line up with the air intake horn.

[Nick DeSpirito]

If you have a late 56 how would they know if it was not correct?

I think the Carter was strictly for the 1957 model year. I have the authenticity manual in front of me and that's what it says.

[Rick Payton]

If the T pot was so wonderful then why did Ford make the change? Because it was an improvement.:D Barry I totally respect that your car is one of the special cars that can compete at shows like Concourse De Elegance but most of us just have nice drivers and want them to be as reliable as possible. Your own statement "When I saw gas gushing out of a Mark II's carb at Motor Muster a couple of years ago I understood how so many caught fire. The bowl is open to atmosphere. When the seat sticks open, gas flows out of the top as fast as can be. It fills the oil bath air cleaner and becomes explosive when the car backfires." That alone makes me want to change out for the better carb. This is just my own thinking. I have some modern upgrades on my car that I think make it a better drive ( New Wheels, Radial Tires, 4 wheel Disk Brakes, Electric Wipers, Dual Chamber Brake Booster, Upgraded Air Conditioning Compressor) I will never compete on Barry's level but at the end of the day I am happy with my car and that is all that matters!!;)

[Barry Wolk]

It was, but the intake manifold is the same. The air cleaner get's repositioned, hence the need for the cutoff '57 air cleaner.

[Barry Wolk]

If the T pot was so wonderful then why did Ford make the change? Because it was an improvement.:D Barry I totally respect that your car is one of the special cars that can compete at shows like Concourse De Elegance but most of us just have nice drivers and want them to be as reliable as possible. Your own statement "When I saw gas gushing out of a Mark II's carb at Motor Muster a couple of years ago I understood how so many caught fire. The bowl is open to atmosphere. When the seat sticks open, gas flows out of the top as fast as can be. It fills the oil bath air cleaner and becomes explosive when the car backfires." That alone makes me want to change out for the better carb. This is just my own thinking. I have some modern upgrades on my car that I think make it a better drive ( New Wheels, Radial Tires, 4 wheel Disk Brakes, Electric Wipers, Dual Chamber Brake Booster, Upgraded Air Conditioning Compressor) I will never compete on Barry's level but at the end of the day I am happy with my car and that is all that matters!!;)

All carbs are open to atmosphere through the piston pump rod. Properly maintained they work just fine. All carbs can pour gas into the air cleaner.

Proper maintenance is the key, not a changeout. If you want to feel good about what you did, that's fine, but none of it was actually necessary, including radial tires.

[Roger Zimmermann]

It was, but the intake manifold is the same. The air cleaner get's repositioned, hence the need for the cutoff '57 air cleaner.
For one moment, I thought that my air cleaner was wrongly manufactured. After looking at the pictures I did this summer, I noticed that the carb is very odd shaped, whereas the Carter is more conventional and the stud for the air cleaner is placed in the middle of the carb.

[Barry Wolk]

If your model is a '56, you're fine.

[Don Henschel]

Yes the carburator is odd shaped but a closer examination will show a round flat mounting surface like the Carter with the air filter locator key in a different position.

"[/QUOTE]Today 10:18 AM
Barry Wolk: I've put 12,000 miles on mine with drum brakes and T-pot carb. What's not drivable? Anybody else here put nearly 2,000 miles a year on their Mark II?"[/QUOTE]

Try it with a 50 Merc with a more primitive version of the Teapot in a 2 barrel version, bios ply and no power steering. I drive this car 70mph all the time, but I have factory overdrive which helps. I would be reluctant to push my Mark at 80 with that crappy 3 speed auto. I wish the Mark had a 4 speed Hydromatic, put like I said before,:dead_horse, this is what it came with and we will make the best of it.

If you have a late 56 how would they know if it was not correct?
Mine is 3391 with a teapot. What was the first 57? 3418 or later?

As for Shelly, did you buy yours with a Teapot? If not how would you know the comparison other than "hearsay".
If Barry is satisfied, I'm satisfied, and many others are, hmmm:confused: maybe they are not that bad after all if PROPERLY set up and with an engine in DECENT operating condition.

Like I have mentioned to Gary:dead_horse, the MarkII is worth many times less than it should be and modifications for better performance etc. certainly don't help the value of this car for a car that performs quite well as is. Barry mentioned his 56 Mark with the Teapot outperforms? or compares to ?(correct me if I'm wrong Barry) his Porche, but does that warrant modifying it?(the Porche) That would be a tragic waste of a rare car!

Now that this post has been totally derailed from the previous "Holley carburator removal" to retrofits, modifications, comparisons etc.:o
It would be best if we didn't run a railroad as our trains would be in the ditch all the time:D

[Don Henschel]

I would say that is a very conservative figure. Mercs., Fords, T-Birds and on many other makes and models of cars other than Fords. There was even a truck motor variation using a governor and manual choke. And I might add Ford did not use the Carter for very long either.

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Carbs/Holley/SpecSheets/1950sMercury/images/50HolleyMerc0076_jpg.jpg

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Carbs/Holley/SpecSheets/1950sMercury/pages/50HolleyMerc0073_jpg.htm

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Carbs/Holley/SpecSheets/1950sMercury/pages/50HolleyMerc0066_jpg.htm

And oh! look at this for a 57 Merc.
http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Carbs/Holley/SpecSheets/1950sMercury/pages/50HolleyMerc0052_jpg.htm

On American cars, those of you down south I noticed had alot of those very good reliable Motorcraft carbs on 50's cars other than the Holley.
Alot of the late 50's Fords made in Canada I remember looking at and driving years ago mostly had OEM installed Holley carbs.

As for the newer Ho;;ey carbs I listed above, what i remember about them was the crappy cork gaskets between the meetering sections that would shrink from a rectangle to an hourglass shape if the carb sat empty and dry for a long period. These gaskets have been updated with a better pressed paper/fiber design and that goes back probably 10-20 years

[Bob Barger]

Some years ago I converted my car from the center float bowl Holley to an Edelbrock 600 (based on the old Carter AFB) it requires an adapter that is available at your local parts store and a bit of grinding around the edges of the adapter to get it to fit. It has an electric choke so I didn't need the heat riser so I plugged the passage into the intake manifold. Now I don't have to worry about burning off the powder coating. I blocked open the flapper valve iattached to the passenger side exhaust manifold and also blocked open the hot air intake on the air cleaner. I have retained the oil bath air cleaner for what reason I'm not sure. The thing works great and no more leaks! Bob

[Shelly Harris]

For you. Many here will disagree. There's nothing wrong with the T-pot and original distributor. There are still thousands of them out there and running fine. Rebuilds usually resolve all problems.

If you want to justify the change in your mind, that's fine. There's no factual reason to make the change.

I have heard it said that frugal Henry Ford never put something on the car if it wasn't necessary. I think the company had the same philosophy in '57. They wouldn't have changed out the carb and dist if it wasn't necessary or an improvement.

BTW Barry... to be consistent there's nothing wrong with points and condenser in your original distributor and the original coil. "There are still thousands of them out there running fine." So why did you change to pertronix... something about the smell if I remember correctly. Doesn't an exploding carb rate a bit higher than an odor for a reason to do an upgrade?

[Shelly Harris]

I agree wholeheartedly with Rick and Norseman, but I'd like to mention that my comments were and are focused on the carb and distributor which Ford installed on all of the later built Mark IIs. This is not a discussion on adding disc brakes or air bags, or other items never originally installed in a Mark II by Ford.

Because the carb and distributor were changed by Ford I have to assume it was a necessary change and improvement. I need not set out the known problems of the tea pot carb. Ford changed to other original authentic parts for the car, which are a decided improvement. Criticizing the replacement of a tea pot with the Carter on an authenticity objection is not valid. As I said previously, if one has a poor running tea pot it seems to me that it's a "no brainer" decision to do exactly what Ford did and upgrade to the Carter and the '57 distributor which was put in most all Fords that year.

[Nick DeSpirito]

Gary,

Did the oil bath '56 air cleaner fit on the carter carb, or did you have to use a '57 air cleaner?

[norseman]

Will ask my mechanic and let you know. Gary

Gary

Don't bother, he's probably off to Hawaii after our first snowfall of the season, spending some of that money he's made off of you:).

Just joking, of course. But seriously, couldn't you just look at a receipt or something, and how couldn't you know if the air cleaner was changed or not? Would your mechanic have hunted one down for you? Maybe this guy is really earning his money, and he's a good deal if he's doing that. When did you get the work done?

[Rick Payton]

After looking at all the information I could find I have decided to keep the Holley Teapot. I ordered new rebuilt one from Pony. I see the benefit of switching to the Carter but I have already purchased the new dual diaphragm vacuum advance. To make the change it involves more than I want to do at this time. Too many people have this carb and are happy to go through all the pain and expense to switch.

[2MarkIIs]

I just got done rebuilding my Holly and for the most part the car is running a lot better, well i should say it is running because that is one of the multiple things i had to do to get my car running. Of course i ran into many of the same issues, fuel leak out of the top lid and idle issues but i just went through the carb, igntion and anything i had to solve these issues. In my opinion i agree with Don and Barry 100%. These cars are old and like any old car, things need to be replaced and rebuilt. Yes they are troublesome and were even back then but the excuse of "oh it could cause a fire or my car runs poorly with a holly" is kind of rediculus. Thats like saying i cant tune my 390 tri-power or my 427 dual quads so i pulled the intake and put a standard 4brl intake on with a new edelbrock carb with an electric choke. I get where you guys are comming from but if it is put together right then you will have no problems, if its not then you are doing something wrong. This goes for everything Carb, distributor/points and so on. I bought my car non running and have ran into all the same issues as everyone else, i have had to replace pretty much everything carb/ignition. Oh and not to mention all the brakes as well, every hose and also a typical master rebuild.

[2MarkIIs]

Like i stated before, im not trying to "hurt anyones feelings" im just stating facts. Yes gary its fine to do whatever you want to your car, its yours and your money. I could careless if you can turn a wrench or not but your post earlier about the radio and upholstery had no logic whatsoever. So it seems to me like well if you dont know what youre talking about then why are you saying these things because they dont make sense at all. That was just my question. I understand about your change And again its not like you have to work on em to own the car but if your going by your mechanic's word on the carb, why isnt your mechanic skilled enough to rebuild the holly one? because clearly as fact ,there is nothing wrong with a tea pot if its done right. but like i said its your car and whatever floats your boat.

[Rick Payton]

because clearly as fact ,there is nothing wrong with a tea pot if its done right. .

If that were true then Ford would not have changed them out in 57 for the better Carter. I don't want to rehash this pissing match but I think you need have read the whole post before it was edited into what we have today to get Gary's point of view.

[2MarkIIs]

Rick, if you had also read my post I stated yes they are troublesome and were even back then, obviously why the change. I did mine and have ran into the same issues as I stated already. But you guys make it like they are impossible to make right and converting to a carter is the only solution which is not true. There are plenty of awesome carb builders out there who will tell you the same.

[crystal59]

Not the only solution by any means. May be worthwile for you to read Barrys thread entitled "Holley Carb Removal" if you have not already done so. Gary

[Rick Payton]

David,

I agree that they can be made to work. That is why I am having Pony rebuild one for me. They fix some of the problems with this "Firebox" as they state on their website. I opted to keep the Holley 4000 after doing a lot of research. My only problem is that everyone wants to hang poor Gary out to dry for the change. I agree it is not a horrible carb. But you have to admit changing to the Carter has some advantages that is all I am trying to say.

[2MarkIIs]

Gary, stated in my earlier post I have already gone through and rebuilt my carb.

[Rick Payton]

from the pony website:The Holley 4000 has many engineering problems. The driveability problem is a hesitation and flat spot off idle. They leak around the lid of the carburetor, and seeping or weeping fuel out of the large brass access plug to the needle and seat. All these items are corrected during restoration. The Holley 4000 T-Pot is by far the most difficult carburetor to work on of any factory carburetor that was ever used by Ford. Once we have calibrated and assembled them, they will run very, very well. It should be noted that one nickname of these carburetors is "Firebox". The end user should be aware of the fire potential of the carburetor should a backfire occur. Our instructions include a warning disclaimer sheet regarding the problem.

David i think you say "but the excuse of "oh it could cause a fire or my car runs poorly with a holly" is kind of rediculus.Thats like saying i cant tune my 390 tri-power or my 427 dual quads so i pulled the intake and put a standard 4brl intake on with a new edelbrock carb with an electric choke."

First off we are not talking about going from 2 or 3 carbs to one. all he is doing is what Ford did in 57 and that is put on a better carb. as for the Fire comment I think it is fair to say it is a problem if one of the best rebuilders sends you a disclaimer warning with the rebuilt carb about possible fire!

[2MarkIIs]

Rick, thanks for the link but I already know the issues with the carb as I have already stated. And again as I have already said but you guys repeat, I get the change and I know why Ford did it. Just seems lacking like if you can't get something right you just change it out. Again like I said I understand all the issue and reasons at hand but if the carb, fuel and ignition are all set up properly which can be done, there will be no problems. Thank you and this my last post in the thread lol. Too much for me here with you guys.

[Barry Wolk]

If you keep your car in tune, it will not backfire. Problem solved.

There were 2,550 Mark IIs made with the T-pot. About, 1,500 remain. Can't be too bad.

[Sean Rollins]

I'm keeping mine as well. To make myself feel better, and because I am used to having one in my work truck, I mounted a halon extinguisher in behind my spare. If the tire cover is only zipped down part way,, the rest of it hides it not too badly from site. It should be noted that the teapot is not alone when it comes to carb fires.Given the right circumstances, it can happen to most carbs. It is more important to keep the engine tuned and maintained so the circumstances don't present themselves.

[Rick Payton]

I keep my extinguisher inside right behind the front seat for easy quick access! just take it out for shows and such. I think every car should have one! I have saved 2 cars over the years!

[Barry Wolk]

The argument that the T-pot has a vented bowl is absurd as all carbs have a vented bowl.

Just because Ford changed suppliers is no reason to change carbs. That's just foolish. I'm sure the only reason they changed was MONEY, and nothing else. The carb wasn't even responsible for the 15hp change for '57. That's attributed to a higher compression ratio.

[crystal59]

No suprise that I have a fire extinguisher in every car but also have a read about the battery disconnect I use which costs 25.00 on ebay and shuts everything down as an additional safety device. Gary

[Barry Wolk]

May be worthwile for you to read Barrys thread entitled "Holley Carb Removal" if you have not already done so. Gary

Maybe you should reread the post. You've got your knickers in a twist over nothing.

[Mad Scientist]

While having a car fire is not a daily occurrence and not something that one needs to be perpetually worried about. Still it can and does happen so having a fire extinguisher handy just in case makes sense. And unless you are concerned about authenticity then replacing a carburetor that has a history of being prone to catch on fire, that to makes sense.

Having a battery kill switch as a safety device is also a good idea. Just putting out the flames of an electrical fire doesn’t do much good if the power is still flowing to reignite it.

This is just cheep insurance that could hopefully prevent a small problem from becoming a big problem.

[Barry Wolk]

Antique car fires are a statistical anomaly. People that worry about them need to find a different hobby.:rolleyes:

Yes, a fire extinguisher is always a good idea.

[crystal59]

As always, a word to the wise.. install or do not install the battery disconnect as a safety measure. I find it interesting that a thread is created and mentions at the outset the potential danger of the T pot carb and the reason in part for others to change to a Carter carb and Fords change to a Carter carb in 1957. The critique that follows is to say the least interesting and revealing in what and how it is said. Gary

[Rick Payton]

Antique car fires are a statistical anomaly. People that worry about them need to find a different hobby.:rolleyes:

Yes, a fire extinguisher is always a good idea.

Barry with all due respect:D I don't think anyone is overly worried about a fire. But every national show will disqualify you with out a fire extigisher.. I guess they should all get a new hobby.:rolleyes:

[Barry Wolk]

Not so. My Mark II has been in over 50 Concours and it's never been a requirement. Not once.

[Barry Wolk]

You might want to check with the poster to make sure you are interpreting posts correctly. When you quote my "Removing Holly Carb" as some basis for swapping out your carb, you need to reread things before acting. NOWHERE in that thread does it say that I'm removing it for safety reasons, it was simply a tutorial for those that thought that removal of their carb was beyond their skills. It was being removed for service, not because it's a bad carb. You jump to conclusions too quickly.

[crystal59]

I read it not as a bad carb but as potentially a risk particularly for cars that sit for long periods. That is all I took from that post.. And I note your comment in the post "... I understood how so many caught fire." Was that comment untrue? Gary

[Barry Wolk]

Well, you read it wrong. Actually, the Holley carb is less of a risk as the bowl is nearly empty after just a couple days of sitting.

Once enough fuel evaporates the float drops, opening up the needle valve, allowing the rest of the fuel to drain back to the tank, therefore decreasing any fire hazard. It wasn't designed for that purpose, but that's what happens. That's why cars equipped with electric fuel pumps start right up and those that require the mechanical fuel pump to fill the bowl will take longer to start.

If a float sticks open, or the float fails and fills up with fluid, the very same thing will happen to a Carter as would happen to a Holley.

You need to ask more questions before running to your mechanic with perceived ills. That's all I'm trying to tell you. We're trying to save you from yourself.

[Barry Wolk]

"... I understood how so many caught fire." Was that comment untrue? Gary

Only true of those that don't maintain their cars. Had you read that in context you would have had yours rebuilt instead of replaced.

Seriously, Gary, wouldn't you think I would have changed mine if it was unsafe?

[Rick Payton]

Well, I just installed my newly rebuilt carb from Pony..... I am sooo happy :D The car runs like a top all my problem with stumbling and low idle issues all gone!! I highly recommend Pony Carbs to anyone!!! What a difference a fresh rebuild does for a cars run-ability! The whole process was less than 30 Mins.

[Sean Rollins]

Looks great. It's nice that it comes back looking like a new carb. That's the nicest looking rebuilt I have seen in a long time. So, no stumble off the line at all?

[Rick Payton]

No stumbles nothing just puuuuurrrrfection:D

[Nick DeSpirito]

Looks great Rick. They rebuilt mine too. Glad to hear your car is purring. :)

[Doc]

Rick - I'm happy to hear you are also having good result with the Pony rebuild. I'm still pleased with mine as well (and now we both have the same problem: the carb looks a ton better than the engine it's sitting on--I think I've got a project for the winter to detail the top of my engine);)

Given all the back and forth we've had on the Forum over the relative merits of the "teapot", I'm curious was it also run on the Lincolns with the same engine block or did just the 56 Mark II's have them?

[Nick DeSpirito]

Yes, Pete. Capri and Premiere also used them and the 368.

[Rick Payton]

I can also report that my cold start issue is gone.... I know it is Texas but, we have a cold snap right now it is almost 32 F. I just got home from a party and she fired right up. I cannot get over how much better this car is running on the Pony Rebuild.... Not to beat this horse to death any more but, :dead_horse I would highly recommend you rebuild your Teapot and keep it instead of changing to the carter. I am happy with that choice now.

[2MarkIIs]

What do they charge for a rebuild?

[Sean Rollins]

I just checked this morning. $479.50 plus $250.00 core if you don't have one.

[Don Henschel]

No stumbles nothing just puuuuurrrrfection:D

Just like mine after I rebuilt it! When fully warmed up a very fast twitch the key to start and back to run it is running. A slight bump on the starter. No flat spots or hesitation as well. I run the highest premium I can find up here (91-92 octane) with octane boost and have my timing advanced to a very slight ping under load at full throttle. If you run a piss poor grade of fuel and have your timing retarded way back to make this crap work, you will have flat spots and hesitation. I run the idle screws slightly on the rich side but not too rich as to cause a loppy black smoking idle and this also helps for flat spot off idle, if you have to. Mine doesnt look as pretty but at least it works very well with no leaks. The ONLY time it overflowed was totally my fault as the car sat for 4 years with very stale gas in the tank. The carb varnished up so bad the needle and seat valve stuck wide open, totally gummed up with sticky varnish and flooded the engine (any carb will do this under the same circumstances!!). I got a spray can of carb cleaner, removed the top of the carb still on the engine, cleaned the carb and drained the tank. That was when I posted about a drain plug on the Mark II fuel tank. I like the Carter as much as the Holley but if you do some research you will find many more Holleys were used throughout the 50's,60's,70's, and 80's than Carters. As for the argument about Ford making improvements and changing components, that is why they went to the overhead valve engines and discontinued the flathead V8 but be damned if I will swap out my flatty for an overhead valve in my 50 Merc. Oh and yes I am still running points and condenser ignition, and generator charging, tube AM radio with mechanical vibrator, mechanical fuel pump, copper spark plug wires (50 Merc.), non resistor spark plugs, mechanical clock-not quartz, bios ply tires, drum brakes, asbestos gaskets, and clutch and brake linings on everything I have that came with these components.:D I think we have:dead_horse:dead_horse and it is time to move on to some REAL problems and issues:rolleyes:

[Shelly Harris]

I think I can sum up this thread by stating that we're all guilty (myself included) of letting our egos dictate the preference for the tea pot or a Carter. Without exception we're all supporting which ever carb we're using. I'd like to hear from someone like Jack who has experience with both. Anyone out there who has worked and run with both ? Which one is better ?

[Don Henschel]

The Carter is probably better but having to change the air cleaner, distributor, and the carburator, and not to mention altering OEM installed components I wonder if it is even worth it. Not to mention the Carter had acceleration pump problems as well causing hesitation. The Autolite 4100 four barrel was a far better carburator and Ford certainly didnt use the Carter for very long:confused::rolleyes:
Like I mentioned before I set my timing by "ear" and this has always worked for me.
The following quote is from Pony Carburators Inc. web site and it pretty much sums it up.
[quote- Pony Carbs]
"Whenever our clients call us concerning drivability problems (hesitation, flat spots, surges) 99% of the time, the problem is ignition timing. We will share with you an accumulation of many years of experience and if you follow our GOOF PROOF method -you will be rewarded with the best drivability and performance you have ever experienced.

THE THEORY:

All Ford engines will run better, deliver more power and give better fuel economy with the timing advanced BEYOND factory specifications. Premium unleaded fuel is recommended (especially in six cylinder engines). After you have read the procedure, your engine will perform the best when the engine will either just barely "ping" on full acceleration or not quite "ping." (PINGING indicates timing advanced too far.)"
[quote]

Like I said use proper fuel and advance your timing as much as you can until you hear very slight pinging on a fully warmed up engine of course. And by the way, very late timing can also cause back firing through the carburator as well, usually when the engine is cold. If your engine is tired the carburator is often blamed. First check your engine compression and know where your at before you start spending money unnecessarily on carburation. This money can be better spent on fixing the "real" problem. Sometimes a hotter or properly working coolant thermostat can do wonders.

[Hal W May]

I have a '57 w/Carter-once warmed up to operating temperature-no hesitation-when cold and during warmup-there is hesitation-just like an old Chrysler 440-a cold natured engine-what's ya'lls opinion on "octane booster"?

[Bob Barger]

When I got my car it had a black spot in the center of the hood and the hood blanket was distroyed. It regularly filled with fuel and killed the engine. I replaced mine with an edelbrock 600 and it runs like a dream. It took some adapting but the parts are available. I don't care about having a 100 point car, I prefer it to run well. Bob

[Dan]

My 57 has a Carter with extreeme problems, and it had been rebuilt and installed less than 2,000 miles ago, about 2 1/2 years back.
Gasoline pouring out of the sides and top, spilling onto the manifold.
Dis-assembling the carb, my mechanic discovered float problems, and a blocked jet in the secondary. With all that gas pouring into the bowels, who could have guessed there were problems with the jets?
With adjustments and cleaning, the Carter is working better.
My mechanic specializes in Early T-birds, has been around Holley T-pots for almost 50 years, and has no problems with them
I've owned 55 and 56 T-birds each with Holley T-pots.
Last year I had big problems with my 56. After tinkering with the Holley ad nauseum, I had it replaced with a rebuilt one. It runs perfectly.
I have no experience with Carters, but I hazard a guess I will be getting to know them with my 57.
I am a purist by nature and support any attempts to take a vehicle back to its original state. After a year of removing "improvements" and advances to my 56 Bird, the car now runs better than I had imagined possible. All because it is now stock.
My Father was an engineer with Ford, and later worked with the Federal goverment, investigating defects in cars. Many times he would point out manufacturers, when discontinuing a line would throw any economic solution at a problem, not necessarily, an improvement. The decision to end the Mark II happened before the introduction of the Carter?
Ford also went back to using Holley Carbs, didn't they?
That being said, I will attempt to take my 57 back to its original state, Carter carb and all. To me thats good stewardship. Thats what I find compelling about these magnificient vehicles; taking them to as original a state as I can afford to do.
That being said, I put radial tires on both my T-birds, and used paper filters on a modified oil bath system. Everyone is welcome to do what they are compelled to do, but I am always blown away by the cars I have seen, that are the truest restorations possible.
Judging on T-birds, points are deducted for any variation from stock, including the addition of distributor/carb/air filter from a 57 onto a 56.

[Doc]

That being said, I will attempt to take my 57 back to its original state, Carter carb and all. To me thats good stewardship. Thats what I find compelling about these magnificient vehicles; taking them to as original a state as I can afford to do.
That being said, I put radial tires on both my T-birds, and used paper filters on a modified oil bath system. Everyone is welcome to do what they are compelled to do, but I am always blown away by the cars I have seen, that are the truest restorations possible.
Judging on T-birds, points are deducted for any variation from stock, including the addition of distributor/carb/air filter from a 57 onto a 56.

Ironically, most of the discussion on the Forum has been about going the other direction--i.e. substituting Carters for the presumably less reliable teapots. Most of the carb-related complaints and problems we've discussed have been around the teapots, not the Carters. I suspect that a quality re-build of your carb will solve your problems.

We've also discussed the question of how "authentic" a restoration is appropriate for our cars. LCOC takes the same approach as you describe for judging the T-Birds. Many of us, however, like you are running radials, have converted our air cleaners, etc. Clearly it's an individual decision and there is no "right" answer to what is appropriate. Personally, I think part of the decision has to be based on how you plan to use your Mark II. If you want to drive it, it's a sufficiently "modern" car that it can readily be driven at highway speeds, etc. In that case, I think radials make sense and improve the driving experience and safety. Same with seat belts, etc. On the other hand, if it's to be a pure show car, such changes probably can't be justified. Conversely, I have a 1930 Ford. In anything near stock condition, a Model A is not a car that lends itself to highway speeds, etc. I can't justify changing wheels and tires, converting to 12 volts, etc. on that car if I want to retain any sense of authenticity based on how I drive it, so it's 100% stock/original.

[Barry Wolk]

I don't know that I agree. I believe just Shelly and Gary have changed. In fact, I think that Gary is the only one to do it as Shelly's came with a Carter and he changed it out.

There's nothing wrong with a Holley T-Pot on a good running engine. A good running engine doesn't backfire, hence no fire.

[Shelly Harris]

Yes, mine came w/ the Carter and I had it rebuilt. My car has two other '57 mods aside from the Carter. It has the distributor and air filter of the '57.

[Dan]

Thats the similar configuration with the T-birds.
Many people believe the 57 combination is best, and aply them to the 56.
This includes the manifold too, so the carb fits correctly.
On the other hand, my 56 is all 56 and I could not be happier with the performance. If I wanted a 57, I'd buy a 57. But thats just my humble opinion.

Back to the Mark II:
Using the Carter rebuild manual here, combined with the postings re:vacuum diagrams, my mechanic feels I might just see my car functioning by the end of the weeked. The biggest problem he unearthed were 4 fouled plugs. These were so bad, the engine was firing on only 4 cylinders! He sets timing and everything by ear also, but I will pass on what has been posted re:vacuum settings.
First he's got to get the hoses back in order. This site has been a valuable tool to get a handle on the running of the car. Already I am very grateful for what you have put together here.

[Barry Wolk]

The '56 and '57 manifolds are the same. A different air cleaner was necessary because the Carter has a different mounting position for the air cleaner. The '56 air cleaner interferes with the the throttle linkage when used with the Carter.

[Doc]

I don't know that I agree. I believe just Shelly and Gary have changed. In fact, I think that Gary is the only one to do it as Shelly's came with a Carter and he changed it out.

There's nothing wrong with a Holley T-Pot on a good running engine. A good running engine doesn't backfire, hence no fire.

At the risk of adding fuel ;) to this seemingly endless debate, I just want to clarify that I wasn't advocating the switch to Carters; just observing that most of our conversation has been about the need to maintain the Holleys well, while we've had relatively little discussion of any shortcomings with the Carters. For the record, we're running our original Holley (rebuilt by Pony) and are completely pleased with our car's performance and don't perceive any risk of fire or any other problem--after all, it's served the car well for more than 50 years and over 150,000 miles.

[Dan]

That was the point I was trying to make.
Any carburetor unserviced will cause problems. Thats why automotive engineers ended up evolving fuel dispensation to fuel injectors, and phased out carbs altogether.
After resolving the issues with the Carter, my mechanic tuned the engine and it runs great...
... Except the car now is gas starved when accelerating up an incline.
Further exploration has revealed a faulty fuel pump.
Here's the next hurdle b/4 the car is driveable.

[Barry Wolk]

Was the float height checked?

[Dan]

yes
then we disconected the fuel pump and turned the engine over
nothing bit a trickle of gas and 2lbs pressure from the fuel pump

[Barry Wolk]

Does yours have the cartridge fuel filter. It could be plugged. The fuel lines could be plugged and the pickup in the tank could be varnished. All easy things to check. Might want to take a peek in the tank for good measure.

[Dan]

blew air backwards into the tank
gas gurgled and splashed, clear line there
the pump has a metal basin at the bottom; cleaned that out too
just a little sludge and residue

[Barry Wolk]

Does your car have a fuel filter in the pump?

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/barry2952/1%20Mark%20II%20docs/Fuelpump.jpg

[Dan]

yes,
though I wouldn't really call it a filter.
and speaking of filters....
... are paper air filters readilly available?

[Barry Wolk]

Only for a '57. The '56 were oil bath, which I still use.

[Doc]

yes,
though I wouldn't really call it a filter.
and speaking of filters....
... are paper air filters readilly available?

FYI - There is an entry in the Domholdt Archives in the Document Library of the Forum on how to convert a '56 oil bath air cleaner to a paper filter.

[Dan]

mine is a 57

[Dan]

Well, we dismantled the fuel pump.
Clogged valves, and more crud in the filter bowl.
We suspect a rusty gas tank to be the culprit.
Spark plugs #2 and 6 continue to foul,
I'm hoping some regular driving might help anything that might be sticking.
Runs fine on the highway, intermittantly rough when idling in the city.
Still puts out grey smoke on the drivers' side at startup only, no smoke when up to running temperature.
I feel like we're making progress.

[Sean Rollins]

Don't spend too much effort looking for the cause of smoke on the driver's side during warm up if your car still has an operating heat riser. When cold, most of the exhaust comes through the driver's side as the plate in the heat riser closes off the passenger's side pipe.

[Pat Marshall]

yes,
though I wouldn't really call it a filter.
and speaking of filters....
... are paper air filters readilly available?

Narragansett Reproductions (among others) carries them.

G-3MK Air cleaner filter, 1957 ………………. 12.50

[Barry Wolk]

Don't spend too much effort looking for the cause of smoke on the driver's side during warm up if your car still has an operating heat riser. When cold, most of the exhaust comes through the driver's side as the plate in the heat riser closes off the passenger's side pipe.

True, but the crossover pipe at the rear axle splits the flow and exhaust comes out of both tail pipes.

[Roger Zimmermann]

True, but the crossover pipe at the rear axle splits the flow and exhaust comes out of both tail pipes.
...if still installed!

[Dan]

The heat riser has been disabled for now
We're not talking moisture from the exhaust, but gray smoke
only @ start up
Both pipes exhude exhaust, driver's side is the grey smoker
I will check out resource for paper air filter, thanks Pat.

[Sean Rollins]

In that case, what do the fouled plugs look like? Do they foul up quickly? I am thinking maybe the valve seals could be dried up a bit and when the motor is shut down, the oil slips past, but when running, it burns off upon warm up. Is there a oily residue at the exit for the exhaust at all? Try holding a paper towel over the exhaust exit while it's warming up. It should show what's giving you the smoke. If it smells strongly of gas and the droplets seem to soak quickly, it could be fuel as the two cylinders that foul are closest to the carb. If not, it could be the valve seals on those two cylinders. I had a motor that sat for a long time, but was in otherwise good condition rip a valve seal and cause some smoking. I kind of hope that is the case for you as well as the repair is easy and inexpensive.

[Dan]

My T-bird mechanic is saying the plugs are fouled. I pulled a couple of them today, and there is some carbon build up, I know the engine is running rich. The thinking here is the same re: valve seals. Since it doesn't happen once the engine is warmed up we were thinking oil might be getting thru dried seals, while the car sits. Then gray smolke at startup as that oil burns off.
Lots of carbon coming from the tail pipe.
I am taking the car next to someone who has a little more experience with Continentals, mostly the Lincoln varietry.
I'll try the paper towel routine at the next cold start.