Shifting Pattern & Problems [Archive] - Mark II Forum

MKII

08-08-2009, 01:13 AM

hi:

I am just starting to use my newly aquired Mark II. Good original car that was left sitting for 20 years or so. I made the big mistake of not using it before I started to work on it, so, to make a long story short, now, after a few months of work, I have a beautiful looking Mark II which I am just starting to drive and notice a few things I need to find out more about. First one is the transmission.

How is it supposed to work? The car starts in what appears to be second speed, and it only starts in Lo when you put the lever on Lo. Is this normal?

It shifts from second to third beautifully.

Up till yesterday, the car was slipping in the change between 2nd and 3rd, and it started on second but slipped a lot. I found, to my dismay, that I have to take the engine out to look into the transmission, so today, my mechanic took a look underneath, removed the oil pan, cleaned it (oil came out reddish - brown, clean) and found out that one of the bands was very loose. He tightened it but did not want to risk in taking anything appart, so he just assembled everything back to try the car, with the results mentioned above. By the way, he reused the old oil. Now, I have a car that starts feeling heavy but reasonably well, without any slipage and with great shift between 2nd and third. The car drives like a dream, but is deffinatly a little slow to start.

So... is it supposed to start on Lo or is it normal to start in 2nd?

Also, my transmission is not downshifting when I press the gas pedal to the floor. I suppose that may be adjusting something... I hope.

Any advice?

Thanks,
Victor

Barry Wolk

08-08-2009, 06:17 AM

Yes, that shift pattern is normal, and works quite well.

Victor, the downshift might be a simple adjustment of the linkage off the carb.

MKII

08-08-2009, 08:31 AM

Thanks Barry. It sure makes me feel much better.

I will look into the downshift adjustment.

One additional question: When pushing the gas pedal to the floor from a standstill, should it go into Lo, or Lo only is available via the transmission lever?

Thanks,
Victor

Nick DeSpirito

08-08-2009, 09:11 AM

Hola Victor,

When driving, First gear is only a passing gear, like when you are going to pass someone on the highway. The Mark II starts out in second gear from a standstill. If you car is not kicking into passing gear when you want to pass, then there is an adjustment for that on the rod that goes from the throttle linkage down to the transmission. You certainly can start out in first by shifting the transmission selector into lo, but you will then have to manually shift into drive. Lo is good for driving in bad weather (like snow and ice) which I don't think you have to worry about in Mexico.:)

MKII

08-08-2009, 09:17 AM

Hola Nick:

Muchas gracias! Pretty clear now.

Victor

Nick DeSpirito

08-08-2009, 10:41 AM

de nada. Post some pictures of your car when you get a chance.

MKII

08-08-2009, 11:58 PM

Car is not finished yet, but I took it out today and made a few pictures.

A couple more questions of transmissions:

1. How do you check the oil level. Engine running? Park or neutral? I did not find a reference in the owner's manual.

2. When the car is already on high (or 3rd), and manually shifting to Lo, lets say like for engine braking on a downhill, should it go first into second or does it go directly into Lo? Mine seems to go directly into Lo, and I just want to check if this is normal or if I have some issues there.

Thanks,
Victor

Nick DeSpirito

08-09-2009, 06:32 AM

Victor,

Transmission fluid should be checked with the engine running and at operating temperature. I would put the gear selector in park with the emergency brake engaged (as with any car that's running, for that matter) for safety.

I suggest that you read your owner's manual and follow it's instructions for shifting manually.

From what I can see in the pictures, you car looks very nice. Do you have the rocker moldings for each side of the car?

Shelly Harris

08-09-2009, 11:01 AM

Your car looks beautiful !!

MKII

08-09-2009, 12:28 PM

Not being a native english speaker, I sometimes have difficulty understanding things. My owner's manual was not very clear to me. I guess my transmission is working fine now, after tightening the one loose belt, but my only doubt is in the downshifting to Lo from a slightly high speed, let's say around 30 mph. Right now, if I do it, the car will go very abruptly into low, and I am not sure if that is normal or if it should go first to intermediate or second and then into low or first. I live in a neighborhood on top of a very steep hill, so when comming down this very long and very steep way, I usually have any old car's transmission help so the brakes will not overheat. I have a 1964 Buick Riviera with only one low, which does that, initially is shifts down into second and after the car has decreased it's speed enough, then it downshifts into first.

Would a Mark II's transmission work that way also, going first into intermediate or would they go down into Lo? Or would it go directly into Lo?

Thanks for the words on my car. Funny, I agree that from the pictures it appears that it does not have the rocker mouldings. It does have them, but the bright silver color (matched exactly from the original paint) plays tricks on us. I am enclosing another pic in which you will see the mouldings.

The car is almost finished except for a few details. From the outside I need the mirror (the past owner had a beautiful replica made but I have to find who can do the glass for me or find a full head). The interior would benefit from retouching the paint in certain seat areas. Mechanically, I need to install a correct battery, and check on the oil and fuel gages, that are not working. also the automatic wiper when you press the squirter buttons is not working. I believe that is all I have to do yet, as the rest works great, even the clock and radio.

Thanks,
Victor

Barry Wolk

08-09-2009, 01:24 PM

Victor, on your wipers, you may find that the wiper coordinator is not working or the mechanism in the bottle is gummed up. Theres a thread on wipers you may fine interesting.

They can be fixed. Plese try to repair them before resorting to electric units. When working properly they work just fine.

MKII

08-09-2009, 08:58 PM

Barry:

Thanks! Don't worry. I don't want to adapt anything to the car. I even saved as much as I could of the original ribbed water hoses for heaters and squirters. The squirters are working fine when you press the button to actuate them. What is not working is that the wipers, if I understand correctly, should move when the squirters are on, without having to turn the wiper motor on, and stop once water stops flowing. I believe it is the red capped electrical device in the cap of the winshield water deposit.

I will look for the thread on wipers. By the way, I got a new motor from Rob at Ficken Wiper Service, as I was given an incorrect one with my car, and it works great.

Thanks,
Victor

Mad Scientist

08-09-2009, 11:00 PM

Some Ford transmissions from this era were set up to shift in a 1,2,3 manner. However as others have stated the MKII normally starts out in 2nd then shifts to high. First gear is available only by shifting into “lo” or flooring the accelerator when starting off.

If you are at highway speed flooring the accelerator will cause it to down shift to 2nd gear.

If you are at a relatively low speed and floor the accelerator it will down shift to 1st.

By adjusting the length of the control arm that goes down to the transmission you can set how quickly it will down shift.

Pushing the button in the wiper control turns on an electric solenoid valve on top of the washer bottle. This then allows vacuum into squirter pump causing a piston to be pulled up against a spring and washer fluid to be sucked into the pump. When you release the button the solenoid is turned off and the spring forces the piston down and a measured amount of fluid onto the windshield.

To start the wipers you must turn the knob.

Barry Wolk

08-10-2009, 06:47 AM

I believe the vacuum charges the spritzer as soon as you start the car and the solenoid released the vacuum, allowing the spring to put pressure on the fluid.

Mad Scientist

08-11-2009, 11:39 PM

No it does work as I stated. I had the chance to carefully examine mine when I took it completely apart. I disassembled everything, cleaned it, greased it, polished it, powder coated it, tested it with a vacuum pump. It’s totally rebuild and ready to install.

Only problem now is I don’t have room for it. :eek:

MKII

08-18-2009, 08:52 PM

I have been offline for a few days. After using my Mark II a little more, I decided I will settle by it's operation as it stands now, without considering any repairs. It is not as mad scientist describes, but it works fine for me for the moment. It shifts so smoothly that I would hate to tamper with it, and according to Barry's description on cost for taking it out, I'll rather have it as is.

It only goes to first or Lo when manually changed there.

When on high and pushing the gas to the floor, it only goes to intermediate or second, and never to low.

Thanks for all the help,
Victor

Mad Scientist

08-18-2009, 10:45 PM

It really is suppose to down shift to first gear. But only if you are going slow enough and only if you completely floor the accelerator.

If that's its only problem I wouldn't worry about it. You definitely do not want to take out the transmission unless you absolutely have to.

Barry Wolk

08-18-2009, 11:28 PM

It was not a pretty sight.

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/barry2952/Picture0006-3.jpg

MKII

08-26-2009, 10:46 PM

Update:

After taking the transmission pan out and cleaning it (just clean oil, not any ugly things there), tightening one loose belt, and reusing the old oil (believe it or not my mechanic insisted we should use it again), the transmission improved a lot.

Then, by adjusting the rod going from the carburator to the gearbox, by lots of trial and error adjustments, finally I believe I got it to a fine working condition.

Right now, my car starts in intermediate or second regularly, unless I push the accelerator to the floor; if I do it, it goes into Lo or first, and then, as I move my foot a little out, it changes to intermediate or second. If not going fast and floorint it, it does come back to first, just as Mad Scientist described.

Second to third shift takes place at around 45 - 50 mph.

The transmission shifts smoothly enough and I am enjoying the car a lot (other than it feels real heavy and a little slow, but I will prepare a post on that later). I assume it is working mostly fine now and can deffinately live with it as it is.

My only doubt would be when manually downchanging into the Lo position. If I want to use engine brake, let's say on a large downhill, when I manually put it into Lo, the car will actually go to Lo, and not to intermediate first... In other words, if I am going 25 or 30 mph and manually move the lever to Lo, the car will go into first speed, with it's consequent very harsh downshift and some tire squeak.

Is this normal or should it go into second and then into first? (that is how my 1964 Riviera, which also has one low, works).

Thanks,
Victor

Barry Wolk

08-27-2009, 07:10 AM

We don't have any hills in Michigan to test my transmission on. Pretty flat around here.:)

Don Henschel

08-27-2009, 04:37 PM

Hi MKII
Very nice car. Your transmission should go into second for hill control around 25-30. I can't remember as it's been a while since I drove mine and did this. It works very much the same as the old Cruisomatics in the Fords with D2,D1 and low. If you are going slow enough it will go into 1st gear, and about 20-30 miles per hour will only go into 2nd gear. As you slow down it will shift quite hard into 1st gear by itself. My downshift isnt set right yet, and I will not get first gear if I floor it. I wish this car was like the cruisomatic transmissions, where you could select 2nd to 3rd, or 1st, 2nd to 3rd! A 5000 pound car starting out in second gear and of course requiring96 to 98 octane fuel tends to ping a bit.

Barry Wolk

08-28-2009, 07:51 AM

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/barry2952/1%20Mark%20II%20docs/sc01aaf86c.jpg

MKII

08-28-2009, 02:08 PM

Don: Thanks for your comments on my car, yours is gorgeous!

Barry: Very interesting table, thanks for posting it. I will try to use it to see how close or far I am from the original specs...

... but I believe that for now, I will settle with what I have and just enjoy the car as it is.

Thanks again for your help,

Victor

Mad Scientist

09-01-2009, 10:55 AM

When in doubt as a last resort one can always read the owners manual. :):):)

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i17/mscientist/MKII%20rebuild/MKIIounman.jpg

MKII

09-01-2009, 11:45 AM

Pretty clear! Thanks Mad Scientist. I guess I should have started by carefully reading an owner's manual. Anyhow, thanks to you guys, I have enough information for now to try my transmission and see if it is behaving exactly as it was suppposed to be originally.... though I am very glad it is now behaving very well.

Victor

MKII

09-02-2009, 07:10 PM

I took the car out again and tried the transmission. I wouldn't know how to check on pressures to follow the table that Barry posted, but the speeds seem to be similar to what it says compared to my car's actual performance. The only thing that still puzzles me a little is that, when downshifting manually, the car apparently SHOULD go into second, and once speed decreases enough, it will downshift into first. Right now, if I manually downshift, it goes directly into first, with some tire squeak, by the way.

Other than that, the transmission behaves very well, and once the rod was adjusted, downshifts properly, so... I will leave it just as it is and learn to live with my tough first speed when downshifting, or try not to do it.

Thanks to everybody who helped!
Victor

Don Keller

01-25-2011, 03:51 PM

I was looking at Mark II parts, gasskets in particular, on Rockauto.com and it brought a question to mind. (By the way Pat, your selection and pricing are appreciated.) This may be a cheapa** question, but it could save thousands, which I don't have and this problem affects us all at one time or another. My car has been sitting most of it's life and had a new pump installed in the transmission within the last few years and the trans shifts fine. From sitting, however, the transmission leaks. I bought some high quality stop leak and will try that. If it doesn't work though, I dread the thought of having to have the engine and trans pulled to have the seals replaced. My question is, for those gaskets that have to go around shafts, could one cut the gasket to get it around the shaft and then use a liquid gasket to close the gap thereby precluding having to pull the transmission? Or, if this is a no-no, any other ideas how to short cut this problem? Come on guys, we need to exercise our minds even if it's too cold to work outside.

Thanks.
Don Keller
C56R3838
Jackson, TN

Barry Wolk

01-25-2011, 03:56 PM

Don,

Drive it, the leaks will stop. Seriously. The seals shrink from not being used. The oils and trans fluids have additives that make seals swell, but you have to get them hot and wet to get them to seal properly.

My car leaked everything until I started driving it regularly.

If you need to, you can replace the rear seal with the trans in the car, I believe.

Don Keller

01-25-2011, 05:13 PM

Thanks Barry. I'll give it a try. I'll have to fill it up as it leaked until there was no more to come out. I was thinking of putting a pan under the car and putting it back in every time I take it out, but your idea sounds better. (:-))

Keep warm.
Don Keller
C56R3838
Jackson, TN

Barry Wolk

01-25-2011, 05:19 PM

If it's that bad...............

I'd try some seal conditioner first, before I started taking anything apart. Also, a new seal may not do you any good if the tail shaft has a groove worn in it. there are two solutions to that. The new seals are not as thick, so if you drive them in all the way the seal will sit on fresh material. If it's really bad they have sleeves that can be pressed over your shaft giving it a fresh OD. The seal size is adjusted accordingly.

Sean Rollins

01-25-2011, 05:29 PM

Ask your parts counter person for a speedy sleeve. They are usually thin enough that an origional size seal will still work fine, but you start out with a perfect seal surface again. On a side note, personal experiance has shown me that if I choose to forgo the sleeve while rebuilding something, the sucker will start leaking shortly down the line to spite me.:o

Don Keller

01-25-2011, 05:38 PM

Thanks Sean and Barry. So, if after putting in the stop leak and driving it several times doesn't do the trick, then the transmission would apparently have to be pulled to put this sleve and seal on?

Thanks.
Don

Barry Wolk

01-25-2011, 05:42 PM

I haven't done one on a Mark II, but I believe there's room. The trans sits on top of the frame and the engine has to come out to get the trans out. While you're up there I'd take Sal's advice and change the center carrier bearing if you don't know its history. There is no better way to ruin a perfectly good drive in the country than losing that bearing at speed.

Barry Wolk

01-25-2011, 05:53 PM

I just looked at the cross-section drawing of the center carrier bearing and it seems to me that it would be a simple matter of replacing the roller bearing and reusing the rubber surrounding it. I'd bet that a bearing could be had for 20% of what the whole assembly cost. If you catch it before it self-destructs I don't see why the rubber can't be reused.

Sean Rollins

01-25-2011, 06:21 PM

If the seal at the rear needs a sleeve, it goes on the yoke of the driveshaft, so no problem, if it's at the front though, the engine would need to be out of the way to put the sleeve on the torque converter. One thing to note about rear seal leaks. If you have wobble in the driveshaft from a bad u- joint, steady bearing, or a bend in the shaft, it can cause enough movement between the yoke and the seal to cause a fair leak. usual tell tale sign is trans fluid soaking the drive shaft along it's length. A dried out seal or bad surface will usually only drip.

Don Keller

01-25-2011, 06:47 PM

I will check that. Thanks again.

Don Keller

Roger Zimmermann

01-26-2011, 03:34 AM

Bob Barger

02-01-2011, 11:18 AM

Victor; Low is only for low gear. In drive your car starts in second. If you shift into low from third it will go directly into low gear, you should never do this at any speed fast enough to be in third gear. If you want to downshift, do it only at low speed. If you want to go downhill slowly then start out in low, don't start in drive and then downshift.
If you can find the right shop, it is possible to remove the transmission without removing the engine. The Mark2 is similar to the early T-Birds with the crossmember in the frame. The converter and bell housing have to be removed, then the transmission can be slid back and the tail housing removed. after this is done the transmission can be removed. I found a shop here in San Diego that did my transmission that way. Look for a shop that works on baby birds and they may know how to do it. Bob

MKII

02-01-2011, 11:36 AM

Bob:

Thanks a lot for the description of how the transmission should work. I had determined not to shift into low, thinking there was a problem with my transmission, but I am glad to see that apparently there isn't, as that is exactly what it does, so I am glad to see everything seems to be ok.

Victor

Sean Rollins

04-04-2011, 09:37 AM

I have noticed my transmission seems to hang on to second gear too long until everything is fully warmed up. Anyone else had any experiance with this? I am going to be changing my fluid and filter next weekend, but if repairs are indicated, I figure I would ask first.

Barry Wolk

04-04-2011, 10:20 AM

With only two forward speeds there is very little range. The shift to second gear is rather abrupt, to say the least.

I found that a fluid change helped a bit.

Shelly Harris

04-04-2011, 01:30 PM

Since the day I first drove my car the transmission has always required my letting up on the gas pedal a bit to coax the shift into the higher gear. I think the low gear hanging in w/o shifting is called "slipping". The transmission bands can be adjusted and the pressure valve changed which would might cure it, but I have had difficulty finding a transmission shop willing to take it on. Meanwhile it hasn't got worst and I have gone several thousand miles w/o incident.

Mad Scientist

04-04-2011, 02:05 PM

With a fresh trans rebuild mine shifts from second to third between 35 & 40 MPH when accelerating at a leisurely pace. No playing with the accelerator is needed to get it to shift. You can definitely feel the shift but it is not unduly harsh. Conversely you do not want a silky smooth shift as that would mean that there is excessive clutch slipping going on, which would not be good.

Barry Wolk

04-04-2011, 02:17 PM

Mine was pretty much the same before and after the unnecessary rebuild.

Anybody experience a really loud noise and the shaking of the whole car on acceleration? It turned out to be a bad pressure regulator accessible through the pan. The trans didn't need to come out.:mad:

Can someone explain how this part works and why it did what it did?

AU_MK2

04-04-2011, 05:59 PM

It's been nearly 20 years since I rebuilt transmissions as a full time job,
Without actually hearing or feeling the problem hard to say what it may have been.
The valves can become sticky in the body which can quite often partially direct pressure to a component which then becomes a timing issue between two components. if you get the front band and rear clutch timing out it is basically a lockup of the drive line which in regards to a noise can be a bang on a shift. In most cases this noise resonates down the drive shaft

The chart shows which components are activated in each gear

Mad Scientist

04-04-2011, 06:03 PM

Don’t know all that much about this transmission but the pressure regulator has to be controlling when the clutches for the different gears are engaged.
If for some reason it decided to engage both 2nd and 3rd gears at the same time I would imagine that there would be a whole lot of noise and shaking going on.:eek:

Chuck Lutz

04-05-2011, 12:41 AM

My car seems to need a coax to shift when cold as well but shifts very smoothly when warmed up. .
There seems to be a connection between this and the "kick down" adjustment in my mind. I've got mine just about right but a little fine tuning couldn't hurt.
With our better weather I've been out and enjoying the heck out of driving daily. I did get an aburpt "clunk" this weekend when going to reverse out of the driveway but I equate that to the same ones I get in my body. We're only 6 months apart in age.
Things get loose. :D

Sean Rollins

04-05-2011, 08:04 AM

Normally, I only take the car out during hot, clear days. Being as I wanted to test out the adjustments on my new brakes, I went out in the cold. I am thinking this problem may not be new at all, just that I had not given it a chance to show itself. Once I change the fluid and filter and adjust the bands, I will test it out and see what that does for it. I'll take a before measure of the front band as well to see what wear there is. I don't want to have the same experiance as Barry, with an unnecessary rebuild.:eek:
On a related note, after having poor results with two of the bigger shops in town rebuilding transmissions in my trucks, I went on the phone yesterday and tried to find someone with experiance and interest in servicing 1950's automatics. I found that hen's teeth are more common.