Zddp - Motor Oil Zinc Additive

[Barry Wolk]

COULD NEW OIL BE KILLING OUR CARS?

By: Dan Szwarc (Compiled from sources across the internet)

Owners of classic cars may not be aware that a few years ago, the
American Petroleum Institute (API) reduced the amount of
zinc-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils that bear the API seal of approval.
This was done because zinc, manganese and phosphates reduce the
effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and also introduce
a given amount of pollutants into our atmosphere. No big deal, right? Our
70s Lincolns cats may last longer.

The downside to this is what the oil industry did not warn anyone about.
A reduction in ZDDP, while determined to be safe for modern cars made since about 1997 using friction-reducing roller rocker and lifter technology, is damaging to our flat-tappet Lincolns made since the 80s and before. To boilb it down, the ZDDP that has been reduced is supposed to protect our lifters, pushrods, and rockers.
The reduction in ZDDP was about 25% from approximately 1100 parts per
million to around 870ppm. The ZDDP molecules act as a cushion between the camshaft and the lifter bottom and other sliding surfaces. It seems that
once zinc levels go too far below 1100ppm, the level of SH and SL-rated oil
used from 2001 to 2005, the amount of damage that can be imparted to the
lifters from normal operation goes up significantly.

Starting in 2005, SM-rated oil began hitting the shelves. It wasn’t
until around 2006 that the SL-rated oils started disappearing and all that
is left on the shelves is the new oil, which is not adequate for long-term
protection of our Lincoln’s engines. So what is one to do?

One can look for SL, SH, or SJ-rated oil. This is very hard to find
today Not to mention that sometimes a bottle of SM oil also has the SL and
SJ ratings on them. Do not use that oil without using a zinc additive.
ZDDPlus is a product available on the internet for about $10 a bottle,
enough for one oil change. It pushes the zinc level to 1800ppm when used
with the latest oils available. If you shop around, you might be able to
find STP Red. Using one bottle (15oz.) of STP Red with 4.5 quarts of
SM-rated oil brings the zinc ppm back up to 1157, the same as the previous
SL oil. STP Red is about $3 per bottle. A reasonable price.

I’m not saying that if you don’t use these products that your Lincoln
motor will die a painful death as its lifters slowly melt without the
cushioning presence of the ZDDP. What I am saying is that if you take the
proper measures now and pay attention to the oil that you put in your car,
you will be protected when the oil industry finally puts warnings on its oil
warning about its use in flat-tappet motors.

[Shelly Harris]

That story is correct. I used Shell Rotella exclusively in my old air cooled VWs because they retained the proper zinc level. Unfortunately that changed two years ago and I had to use an additional zinc additive with the Rotella. Alternatively, Royal Purple still has the zinc (SJ rated) and probably the best you can use....if you don't mind paying the price. But remember the zinc issue only arises in flat-tappet and roller engines.

Caution on Royal Purple... like many of the other synthetics, it's so damn good at cleaning things up, the removal of extensive oil deposits can expose marginal or damaged oil seals, which may then leak. Which is why I'll be using the Rotella (non-synthetic) and zinc additive combo in my Mark II because I have no idea how clean it is inside. I do know it's not leaking and I'm not going to do anything to change that.

[Barry Wolk]

I use Brad Penn Racing oil in a 20-50w in all of my vehicles that are only used during the summer. I use it in my 20KW generator and lawnmower, too. It's highly recommended in the Porsche world.

[Nick DeSpirito]

I've been and am still using SAE-30 as originally used in the Mark II. Am I doing the wrong thing?

[Barry Wolk]

Unless you want your cam lobes to wear off.

[Nick DeSpirito]

Heaven forbid! :eek::D

So can I still use the SAE-30 with an additive? If so, what additive should I use and how much to an oil change?

[Barry Wolk]

An additive is fine, but I prefer mine blended in. That's why I use Brad Penn oil.

[Nick DeSpirito]

So I can use straight Brad Penn oil without any additive and I won't have to worry about my cam lobes wearing off?

[Barry Wolk]

That is correct. If you've ever lost a lobe, you'd be very unhappy.

[Nick DeSpirito]

To say the very least! Sounds downright painful.:eek:

[Mad Scientist]

The only time a straight weight oil might be recommended is if the engine is started and then run for long periods of time. Such as driving across the country or in a taxi.

Are you running a taxi service with your Mark?:D

[Nick DeSpirito]

The owner's manual states to use SAE-30, so I figured if that's what they were using when the car was new, then it would be good for the engine to use the same type.

I just had the oil changed last month, but next oil change, I will switch to what Barry's using.

[Shelly Harris]

Multi-grade motor oil has changed considerably since 1956. Notwithstanding what the original manual says, unless you live in constant cold or constant hot climates you should be using either 10W30 or 10W40. An engine with straight 30W oil suffers and experiences undue wear from cold starts until oil gets pumped up into the valve train and cylinders. It was customary in 1956 for owners to use 10W in the winter and 30W in the summer... modern multi-grades changed all that.

Here is an excellent primer on the subject:

http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairqa/air_filters_oil/ques120_1.html

[Nick DeSpirito]

Thanks for the info guys.

[Shelly Harris]

I found at Wal-Mart Pennzoil High Mileage 10 W 30 in 5 qt bottles. Interesting it claims "Meets or exceeds requirements of API SM and prior API SL and SJ service categories." Its the usual Pennzoil but enhanced with additives designed to help condition engine seals and prevent engine leaks. So I'm going to try this one instead of the Rotalla to which I usually added a quart of Lucas Oil Conditioner. Most important, like Rotella it is not "energy conserving" which I think is the kind of oil older engines should avoid. Also if you run a wet clutch motorcycle, which most are, you make sure you're not using "energy conserving" oil.

[Barry Wolk]

What do you mean by energy conserving?

[depmike38]

Supposed to be "slipperier" and create less friction like a synthetic I'd imagine. I tried a using it in a Yamaha Venture years ago with a wet clutch and it took three oil changes with conventional oil to get the clutch to work properly again. Under load it would slip in high gear. I've never broken down one of these old Continental engines. Do they have the same type of rod and main bearings as anything else would or did they do something creative?

[Shelly Harris]

What do you mean by energy conserving?
"energy conserving" is labelled on most oil you buy these days. Look on the container for the Circle which spells out the oil's rating... on the bottom of the circular mark you'll see "energy conserving" or it'll be blank i.e. not energy conserving. Rotella, Royal Purple, the Pennzoil "Higher Mileage", and oils expressly for motorcycles are not "energy conserving".

[Barry Wolk]

Supposed to be "slipperier" and create less friction like a synthetic I'd imagine. I tried a using it in a Yamaha Venture years ago with a wet clutch and it took three oil changes with conventional oil to get the clutch to work properly again. Under load it would slip in high gear. I've never broken down one of these old Continental engines. Do they have the same type of rod and main bearings as anything else would or did they do something creative?

The Continental engine was hand-picked pieces from the Lincoln parts bin. Nothing special. Thank goodness.

[Don Henschel]

After reading this I did alot of looking around with alot of varying opinions etc. I have never had problems(so far) but I have always taken a lot of care during assembly and breakin. I use the proper cam assembly lube (moly disulfide cam lube), and of course the proper fast idle speed during the first startup. Don't leave your engine idling and bring it up to the cam manufacturer recomends. 2000 rpm is recomended to insure enough oil is splashing around to lube your new or reground cam. I also prelube my engine before startup so the lube system is primed and ready for the fast idle. Remember this if you are in the process of installing or rebuilding your engine. The majority of this flat tappet cam failure is during breakin. After breakin this problem is greatly reduced. If you are still concerned about the removal of zinc, use a motor oil for Diesel engines has been mentioned a lot as it has higher concentrations of zinc, and alot of Diesels still use flat tappet cams.
Check this out for cam break in YouTube - Camshaft Break In Procedure Video - Engine Building DVD

[Don Henschel]

Supposed to be "slipperier" and create less friction like a synthetic I'd imagine. I tried a using it in a Yamaha Venture years ago with a wet clutch and it took three oil changes with conventional oil to get the clutch to work properly again. Under load it would slip in high gear. I've never broken down one of these old Continental engines. Do they have the same type of rod and main bearings as anything else would or did they do something creative?

Same thing and design as many other engines. A lot of the way these older engines were built was carried into the 1980's. One thing that is different is the blocks were a lot deeper where the main bearings are installed and thats why they are refered to as a "Y" block.

[Chuck Lutz]

The Continental engine was hand-picked pieces from the Lincoln parts bin. Nothing special. Thank goodness.

Someone told me that the 368 was originally a truck engine modified for the Mark II.

[Barry Wolk]

It was a truck engine to start with. It had sturdier mains. However, the Y-block was developed for all the cars, not just the Mark II. The Mark II was originally supposed to have a V-12, like the original Continental.

[Chuck Lutz]

It was a truck engine to start with. It had sturdier mains. However, the Y-block was developed for all the cars, not just the Mark II. The Mark II was originally supposed to have a V-12, like the original Continental.

V12!! Cool. Makes sense, even with the V8 and the length of the hood you still have room for a small underdeveloped country.

[Don Henschel]

Started out as a 317.5 in 52 to replace the good old 336.7 flatty in the lincolns. A heavier version was used in trucks as an option as well in 52. Usually they install smaller harder valves, and lower the compression a bit for the truck versions(dont want pinging while working hard). Then it became 341 in 55 and then its last years as a 368 (56-57). Were also used in the higher end Mercs as well. As far as I can tell they are the same block, just a different bore and stroke. I know a collector who has a 52 Capri (also a mechanic) and I am sure he said parts interchanged, kind of like the 332, 352, 390 &higher

[brobaey]

After reading this I did alot of looking around with alot of varying opinions etc. I have never had problems(so far) but I have always taken a lot of care during assembly and breakin. I use the proper cam assembly lube (moly disulfide cam lube), and of course the proper fast idle speed during the first startup. Don't leave your engine idling and bring it up to the cam manufacturer recomends. 2000 rpm is recomended to insure enough oil is splashing around to lube your new or reground cam. I also prelube my engine before startup so the lube system is primed and ready for the fast idle. Remember this if you are in the process of installing or rebuilding your engine. The majority of this flat tappet cam failure is during breakin. After breakin this problem is greatly reduced. If you are still concerned about the removal of zinc, use a motor oil for Diesel engines has been mentioned a lot as it has higher concentrations of zinc, and alot of Diesels still use flat tappet cams.
Check this out for cam break in YouTube - Camshaft Break In Procedure Video - Engine Building DVD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23sYBHH9fUA)

Hi there, I've been doing a lot of research on zinc additives. Thanks for the link. One question though, haven't they taken a lot of the zinc out of all of the oils so the diesel oils don't have much more zinc than a conventional oil and have more detergents in it. Would it be better to just buy an additive?

[Shelly Harris]

I happened to stop in at Pep Boys on the way home and while getting other stuff looked at the zinc bottle that Gary posted. It has no zinc.... it's a zinc "substitute". From what I've read elsewhere I think you can drive a Mark II comfortably without it unless you drive long distances at high speed... then it might be worth using.

[Don Henschel]

I happened to stop in at Pep Boys on the way home and while getting other stuff looked at the zinc bottle that Gary posted. It has no zinc.... it's a zinc "substitute". From what I've read elsewhere I think you can drive a Mark II comfortably without it unless you drive long distances at high speed... then it might be worth using.

Actually the long distance high speed is alot better than stop and start and idling around. Your cam, valve train etc. get much better lubrication due to more oil splashing around in your engine. Your camshaft is lubricated by oil flying off of the big end of your connecting rod. Some engines have a tiny hole drilled in the rod for more oil spray. This is why you should never leave your engine idling slow during first time startup when you install a new camshaft.

[Shelly Harris]

Having spent a good deal of time visiting other forums and other information now on the internet, I've convinced myself that our engines with flat cam/lifter Must be protected with ZDDP (zinc) regardless of the mileage or speed we put on the engine annually. IF any engine in your collection has flat tappet cam lobes then it needs the right amount of ZDDP in the oil. The general rule is an engine built prior to 1986.

I offer the following for your consideration:

Do not use standard motor oil with the addition of some ZDDP additive. You're not a chemist --- you'll have no idea what level of ZDDP you have and you're banking on the additive to really be the right stuff. Don't bank on it. Major oil companies have already done the work -- buy the right oil!

Here's a run down of the "over the counter" oils for your consideration for our STOCK flat cam/lifter engine

For years I used Shell's Rotella which is sold primarily as a diesel engine oil and had an adequate ZDDP component for stock or mild flat cams. However last year they dropped the level of ZDDP and I would not personally run it in ft tappet cam apps due to it having marginal at best zddp protection.

Chevron's diesel Delo 400 LE 15w-40 motor oil is specifically engineered for gasoline & diesel motors in fleet vehicle apps and has1300ppm zddp OK for our stock flat tappet cam/lifter protection.

Mobil 1 syn 15w-50 HIGH PERFORMANCE oil also has 1300ppm zddp thats avail off the shelf for ft cam'd motors. Caution ---> conventional Mobil 1 full syn oils (and all the other oil Brands) for pass cars/trucks dont have near enough zddp for safe/proper ft tappet cam protection.

Castrol Syntec 20W-50 is OK @ 1300ppm. Update (6-9-11)--> it's replaced by Castrol Syntec 5W-50 the exact amount of zinc is unknown.

Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil. Don't let the name scare you... it's street legal and it's recommended for street use. Comes in multi and mono grades and also dyno or syn versions. You may have to order it, but I have seen the 20-50 on the shelf at Autozone $4.95 qt. and NAPA. contains .13% of Zinc and .12% of Phosphorus

Spectro Golden MotorGuard --- A muti grade 10W40 top of the line racing type available on the internet with 1800 ppm of zinc and phosphorus. Currently $7.95 per quart. If you have no problem running mono grade 30 then Summit's brand Racing oil (repackaged Spectro Motorguard) for $5.95 a quart. (Sometimes less when on sale). Update (6-9-11)-->Summit's brand now being shown as not available.

Brad Penn Grade 1 High Performance Oils --- The Green Oil that has about 1300 ppm zinc. Shop it on the internet. Last time I checked Amazon had good pricing.

[Barry Wolk]

The Porsche people all swear by Brad Penn Racing Oil, the green stuff. I use it in all my collectible cars.

[CarMan]

A shop I know likes the Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil.